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Littlestone 5386 posts |
May 05, 2017, 14:13
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Well, referendums don’t always have to be on big issues; the last three Swiss ones were on the federal decree of 30 September 2016, to allow easier naturalisation of third generation immigrants. One on 30 September 2016, to create a fund for national roads and urban infrastructure. One on the 17 June 2016, to overhaul the corporate tax code to attract and retain international firms. Maybe three or four a year for the UK would be too many but perhaps once a year; the issue to be decided by a 50,000 names petition to Parliament. I mentioned social media above and this is where it could play an active part – ie in not only getting people thinking about issues but also in allowing them a say in the matter.
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Jeez 98 posts |
May 05, 2017, 14:36
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I think the non-Tory part of the 50% who voted Brexit and could be bothered to vote yesterday ditched Labour and UKIP and put their considerable weight behind the Tories who are cleverly basing their whole raison d'etre on Brexit toughness to maximise their votes. It's a pity that as soon as we get an anti-war political leader who doesn't spin, lie or fiddle expenses and seems to care about people his chances are just about mashed by the Brexit issue. Oh well - it's gonna be another 5 years of cuts to school budgets and nurses queuing up at food banks. At least we'll be able to say we're strong and stable while we suffer. I'm a bit disillusioned with the way everything is to be honest.
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
May 05, 2017, 15:16
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Jeez wrote: I think the non-Tory part of the 50% who voted Brexit and could be bothered to vote yesterday ditched Labour and UKIP and put their considerable weight behind the Tories who are cleverly basing their whole raison d'etre on Brexit toughness to maximise their votes. It's a pity that as soon as we get an anti-war political leader who doesn't spin, lie or fiddle expenses and seems to care about people his chances are just about mashed by the Brexit issue. Oh well - it's gonna be another 5 years of cuts to school budgets and nurses queuing up at food banks. At least we'll be able to say we're strong and stable while we suffer. I'm a bit disillusioned with the way everything is to be honest. I think that was pretty obvious and that intention wasn't hidden. Ukip have done the job they were formed for and in all probability will fade away now - but you can be sure that a huge majority of them voted Tory to see out for them the job they took such a big part in I'm glad to say. There is a lot going on at the moment and it can't all be dealt with at once as any sensible person will realise.
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thesweetcheat 6209 posts |
May 05, 2017, 17:53
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Sanctuary wrote: There is a lot going on at the moment and it can't all be dealt with at once as any sensible person will realise. But the NHS funding and staffing doesn’t stop because of Brexit, neither does the housing crisis, the education system in meltdown, the tax breaks for millionaires and tax avoidance/evasion for big companies, the taking away of benefits from the disabled, the loosening of planning restrictions and environmental protection, the cutting and selling off of all our public services, the stripping away of employment rights and human rights. All of that continues under the Tories, yet you are prepared to accept all of that because.... Brexit. In the coming election, we are voting for who is going to "deal with" all of that stuff over the next five years, not just whether David Davies is the best man to lead us out of Europe. You don't appear to mind what the Tory policies are on the rest of it, as long as they give you your Brexit "victory". Littlestone said he will be voting against his own conscience, because Brexit. Is that a good outcome? The Tories caused Brexit, but apparently it means they don't need to "deal with" any of the rest of it because they need to be left alone to clear up the mess they have made. Is Brexit the only thing that matters? Another five years of Tory government, publicly fighting the evil Eurocrats while privately dismantling the NHS, the welfare state, public services, workers' rights, human rights and the environment. I appreciate you don't rely on any of those things in your life, but millions do.
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thesweetcheat 6209 posts |
May 05, 2017, 18:00
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I don't think that as a nation we are informed enough. That's why government in this country has always been by consensus. In this country referendu have caused more division and unrest than anything else in my lifetime. You would have to do a lot more to educate and explain to people the costs and benefits of the options. I also think it should be made absolutely clear whether it is binding, it should based on no change being made without a super-majority result either way (say at least 66%) and the proponents should fully cost the options. So if you have a referendum on whether every household gets a pig, the funding for that is clearly shown in the voting options (option 1: pig but higher taxes to pay for it, option 2: pig but cut health spending to pay for it, option 3 no pig) .
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
May 05, 2017, 18:52
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thesweetcheat wrote: Sanctuary wrote: There is a lot going on at the moment and it can't all be dealt with at once as any sensible person will realise. But the NHS funding and staffing doesn’t stop because of Brexit, neither does the housing crisis, the education system in meltdown, the tax breaks for millionaires and tax avoidance/evasion for big companies, the taking away of benefits from the disabled, the loosening of planning restrictions and environmental protection, the cutting and selling off of all our public services, the stripping away of employment rights and human rights. All of that continues under the Tories, yet you are prepared to accept all of that because.... Brexit. In the coming election, we are voting for who is going to "deal with" all of that stuff over the next five years, not just whether David Davies is the best man to lead us out of Europe. You don't appear to mind what the Tory policies are on the rest of it, as long as they give you your Brexit "victory". Littlestone said he will be voting against his own conscience, because Brexit. Is that a good outcome? The Tories caused Brexit, but apparently it means they don't need to "deal with" any of the rest of it because they need to be left alone to clear up the mess they have made. Is Brexit the only thing that matters? Another five years of Tory government, publicly fighting the evil Eurocrats while privately dismantling the NHS, the welfare state, public services, workers' rights, human rights and the environment. I appreciate you don't rely on any of those things in your life, but millions do. You do a lot of talking - too much in fact over and over about the same thing tsc - you never stop. Another five years under the Tory government you say and that is most likely to be true, but how do you know that all the 'evil things' they are supposedly doing won't be resolved in that time? You don't, because you are so filled with hatred toward them you won't even consider that will you. So the NHS, public services, human rights and the environment I don't rely on - really? I live on 5 tablets a day thanks to the NHS, use public services as and when, survive on a VERY basic government pension, have human rights as much as anyone else and rely on the environment as much as anyone else. I don't whinge and whine as I'm lucky to be alive and able to do the things I still do now I'm retired. As I've said before all the complaining and passing the buck is totally futile as nothing is going to change until we have Brexit done and dusted. We should then see changes which hopefully will begin to be to your satisfaction unless you have a crystal ball or time machine to check out the future with. You can't foresee the future any more than I can but I am very hopeful while you are not and nothing is going to change our independent views.
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thesweetcheat 6209 posts |
Edited May 05, 2017, 19:30
May 05, 2017, 19:27
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I talk a lot, yes. It's a discussion forum. I also like to discuss ideas and have my views challenged, it helps me consider if I've got it wrong or missed something. One of the reasons I like tiompan on TMA is because he doesn't let people come out with opinion as fact, he challenges them to back up their assertions. I like that, though some others clearly don't, usually when it's their own pet theories that are being challenged. In my view what has been missing from this thread, about a general election, is a genuine discussion about policies. Personally I choose to vote on policy and don't go much for soundbites or slogans. But there can be little discussion or engagement in a thread about politics if one side won't discuss policies. Every time policy comes up, there is either diversions or answering questions with another question (Yugoslavia, Greek debt, the Jungle, the EU) or there is silence. And that doesn't really make for a discussion. I don't need a crystal ball or a time machine to guess what five more years of the Tories will do, we have a track record to examine that gives a pretty good idea. And you're right about UKIP not being needed now, the Tories have wholeheartedly embraced their position on just about every issue. I hope you've got health insurance sorted as it sounds like you might be needing it after another five years of Jeremy Hunt at the helm of the NHS. [Edited for typos]
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machineryelf 3681 posts |
May 06, 2017, 08:47
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Sanctuary wrote: I don't whinge and whine comedy gold, I'll forgive your blinkered racist claptrap as long as you keep delivering these little gems.
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
May 06, 2017, 08:57
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machineryelf wrote: Sanctuary wrote: I don't whinge and whine comedy gold, I'll forgive your blinkered racist claptrap as long as you keep delivering these little gems. Thank you -most generous :-)
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tjj 3606 posts |
Edited May 06, 2017, 20:25
May 06, 2017, 20:23
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Received my membership card for the Labour Party the other day and was pleased to receive this email from Jeremy Corbyn earlier today. "Although we had welcome victories in Manchester, Liverpool, Wales, Doncaster and elsewhere, results were also disappointing for our party. Too many fantastic Labour councillors, who work tirelessly for their communities, lost their seats. This General Election campaign is a challenge, but it is also a great opportunity for us to work together to create a society in which people are no longer held back by a system that is rigged for the rich. It is a chance to rebuild Britain for the many not the few. We have many people to convince, and just 33 days to do that, but we are ready for the challenge. Labour's plan to transform Britain will mean: investing in infrastructure and new industries, rebuilding our NHS and social care services, giving our children and young people a chance to fulfil their potential. We will win this election together. You can play a vital part by signing up to campaign with Labour now. It is so important. This election could be a great and proud moment in our national story and we must seize it. Jeremy Corbyn, Leader of the Labour Party" While I take on board Drew's comments (elsewhere) about starting a new party or joining the Greens, Jeremy Corbyn seems to be the only hope at present. Swimming against the tide I know but ... its that or drown.
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