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nigelswift
8112 posts

Re: Another Election
Apr 28, 2017, 10:56
Good God, what a load of nasty bollocks, again. You're a bit like Henry V111s wives. Sacked, resigned, flounced, returned, disgraced, looked foolish.

Great link June, and great postings TSC.
Locodogz
Locodogz
254 posts

Re: Another Election
Apr 28, 2017, 12:02
"What's your option? I mean, we're out. That's that."

So you can get 1.13:1 on there NOT being another in/out EU referendum before 2019 or 1.6:1 on the UK leaving the EU before March 29th 2019. 13% or 60% return on investment.

If you're that certain - its got to worth putting a bit of your pension pot in there!?!?! Good Luck
Locodogz
Locodogz
254 posts

Re: Another Election
Apr 28, 2017, 12:26
Are you not allowed to get a passport then?

I don't own a dog, doesn't mean I don't have the right to own a dog should I choose to.
John Rice
John Rice
38 posts

Edited Apr 28, 2017, 13:29
Re: Another Election
Apr 28, 2017, 13:11
Locodogz wrote:
Are you not allowed to get a passport then?

I don't own a dog, doesn't mean I don't have the right to own a dog should I choose to.


Funny thing - it's not even true. You *can* travel between EU countries without a passport (plenty of people commute to work across open borders every day). It's yet more evidence that lots of people in the UK rail against the EU - even vote to leave - and yet clearly haven't bothered to actually learn anything about it.

As an EU citizen, you _do_ need to be able to prove your identity in order to do certain things within the EU - pass through security in an airport; claim benefits; get a job. You can do that with any valid form of photo ID though (passport tends to be the most convenient, but an EU photo-driving-licence will do just as well in most cases).

Which is exactly the same by the way, if you are a UK citizen trying to get benefits in the UK. You _do_ need to prove your identity even in that case... I'm quite sure you can't just walk into a random post-office in the UK, state an unverified name and address, show no ID, and still expect to receive a dole payment? Or is that how it works now in the UK?
Littlestone
Littlestone
5386 posts

Buddha’s birthday
Apr 28, 2017, 13:13
Thanks Ethericat.

For those interested it’s the Buddha’s birthday next Wednesday (this year it falls on the 3 May) though some countries celebrate the occasion on other dates. “In Nepal, the birth-country of Buddha, it is celebrated on the full moon day of the Vaisakha month of the Buddhist calendar. In Theravada countries following the Buddhist calendar, it falls on a full moon Uposatha day, typically in the 5th or 6th lunar month. In China and Korea, it is celebrated on the eighth day of the fourth month in the Chinese lunar calendar. The date varies from year to year in the Western Gregorian calendar, but usually falls in April or May. In leap years it may be celebrated in June.” (Wiki).

Om mani padme hum.
John Rice
John Rice
38 posts

Re: Another Election
Apr 28, 2017, 13:22
"what exactly are the benefits of belonging to the EU?"

Well, as an EU citizen you have the right to live and work in any one of 28 (now 27) nations and still retain all of the same rights as you would in your home country. To me -- as someone who has lived and worked in 5 EU nations -- that's a *massive* benefit.

I may be doing you a disservice, but I suspect you actually meant "what are the benefits to me personally?"

Brexiteer: There are no benefits to being an EU citizen.

Remoaner: But I just applied for a job in Frankfurt that I'm now unlikely to get because of the uncertainty of my immigration status.

Brexiteer: Yeah? But *I* don't want a job in bloody Krautland, do I? I meant there are no benefits for me personally, and if you perceive benefits that I don't want or don't see? Well, who cares? I'm more than happy to vote to deny them to you.
dhajjieboy
913 posts

Edited Apr 28, 2017, 14:05
Re: Buddha’s birthday
Apr 28, 2017, 14:04
Being from an American up-bringing and seriously culturally anglo-saxon/Jewish/New-yorker....
I think i'll be celebrating a nice 'Gouda' slice instead.

Edit:

Nom Nom veri Delishnah
Littlestone
Littlestone
5386 posts

Edited Apr 28, 2017, 15:17
Re: Another Election
Apr 28, 2017, 15:10
thesweetcheat wrote:
Yet again you have avoided the question, Tory voters always seem reluctant to identify which parts of the Tory manifesto they are voting for particularly. Jshell was similarly reluctant elsewhere in this thread.

I have made clear elsewhere in this thread why I think weveryone are better in Europe http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/forum/?thread=75990&message=950933

I also think it's clear from that answer why I think we are less likely to achieve that outside the EU with a Tory government.


Not sure which question I've avoided tsc but, for the record, I'm voting for Theresa May not the Tories. You can interpreted that as being a contradiction in terms if you want but I can see no other party leader capable of taking us through the Brexit negotiations other than her. In all other elections I'll be voting according to my conscience.

You’ve said elsewhere that people like me think the forthcoming election is, “...about the EU, it isn't. A vote for the Tories is anything but a vote for "the people" or for "taking back control". But actually it is about taking back control because whether we vote Conservative or Labour or Rabbit Pie in the election we will still be leaving the EU, and we will be taking back control; the only difference will be how we do it. We’re not going to agree on whether exiting the EU is a good thing or a bad thing, nor how the exit should or will be handled, we can only form considered opinions on what might happen and act on those. Sadly, as I’ve said elsewhere on this thread (21 April), people tend to, “...form opinions on what they want to believe rather than what the facts are actually telling them.” and that’s both a dangerous and a somewhat deceitful direction of travel.

For example, you stated in your post here that you, “...voted remain because [you] strongly believe that a united Europe will help prevent another war, not necessarily soon but some day.” You don’t actually say where you believe this war is going to take place nor when, nor how a ‘united’ EU would be able to prevent it. A ‘united’ EU was unable to prevent the 1991-2001 Yugoslav Wars during which an estimated 140,000 people lost their lives (and that was only sixteen ago). The EU, for years, allowed the Jungle Camp at Calais to go un-policed and, with the exception of NGOs, unattended. We have little or no idea how many children and young people have been trafficked as a result of that neglect into slavery and/or the sex industry. I’d like to know what is so good about the EU in that respect. The EU is a commercial trading block with federalist objectives. Its expansionist agenda in the east of Europe is what is so irritating the Russians and, far from ‘helping prevent another war', it is more likely to cause one in that part of the world.

Further down in your post you say, “I voted remain because I believe that we should have close ties with countries that share values of tolerance and that uphold human rights, rather than looking to places like Saudi Arabia as trading partners.” It’s the ‘believe’ word again. Anyone can use it, for anything, but it’s only a belief not a fact, and we’re talking politics here not religion. You go on in the same post to name Saudi Arabia as the bad boys we shouldn't be trading with (and I’m 100% with you on that by the way) but choose not to mention countries like Australia, Canada, Japan, New Zealand etc who we are presently not free to independently trade with but who, non-the-less, share our values of tolerance and human rights.

One last point. You say in your post, “I voted remain because I trusted the EU to do a better job of distributing the money it takes from member states than our government will. Wales and Cornwall have a shock coming.” With the exception of Truro the people of Cornwall voted to leave. They did so because they do want to take back control – and they will have a far better chance of doing that by electing their own representatives to Parliament rather than relying on Brussels for hand-outs.
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
6200 posts

Re: Another Election
Apr 28, 2017, 19:25
The question you have avoided is which policies in the Tory manifesto you are attracted to and voting for. Unless you live in her constituency you can't vote for Theresa May you can only vote for your local Tory. Is it the welfare policies, the cuts to services, the tax breaks for the wealthy? Perhaps you think the environment is over regulated, too much emphasis on emissions and clean energy, planning laws too restrictive, maybe you'd like a chance to repeal some employment laws and the minimum wage? Maybe you think the NHS would be more efficient run by the private sector? Perhaps a chance to bring back the death penalty or repeal the hunting ban? And that Human Rights Act is very troublesome isn't it? So many possibilities for improvement with a nice Tory majority. This is what you will voting on, it's a general election for the next five year government not a popularity contest on Brexit. The joke is that May herself scorned the SNP for wanting another referendum saying it would cause more uncertainty at a critical time.

You have said a few times about opinion and belief, yet you have not given any facts to back your assertion that Theresa May and the Tories will do a good job or why you have stated (as if it's a fact) that Labour would instantly bankrupt the UK. You haver also stated that staying in the EU threatens things like pints, pounds and miles, none of which have disappeared after 40 years of membership. You criticise others for giving opinions, but give plenty of opinion yourself.

Yugoslavia was never in the EU, and we have no history of wars with them, so I'm not sure of your point. There was however a long history of wars over many centuries with France, Spain, Germany, the Netherlands and Scotland. It took the second world war to unite western Europe, the EU is a direct legacy of that. How long did it take Tories like Michael Fallon to start blathering on about the Navy when Spain mentioned Gibraltar?

You have no idea how we are going to get a better trade deal outside the EU, but it is a fact that the Tories are courting the likes of the Saudis. You have no idea what the Tories will do with the money that currently gets distributed by the EU, but they do not have a good track record of investing in communities, the regions or infrastructure so you are relying on belief and trust if you think Cornish farmers and fishermen will be better off.

You talk about control. Okay then. Which EU laws do you want us to be free from? Which aspects of our sovereignty do you think are currently compromised? Which laws would you pass that the UK couldn't pass already within the EU?

As for faith, no I'm afraid it's the Brexiteers that rely on that. You don't know what will happen, whereas remainers were grounded in what we already know (even if you don't like it and want it gone).
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
6200 posts

Re: Another Election
Apr 28, 2017, 19:37
And yet none of the self-proclaimed Conservative voters will say which Tory policies they find appealing, so I'll keep asking because I genuinely do not understand why anyone who is not wealthy or very right wing in their views would vote Conservative. It's others who mentioned Brexit in this thread, my contention is that this election is not about that, it's about May trying to strengthen her position. I also responded to LS because he asked me a direct question. It's okay to not read my replies though, I won't be offended.

Feel free to revert to insults though, it's easier than answering the question.
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