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Delusion, hope or a lie?
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thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
5850 posts

Re: Delusion, hope or a lie?
Jul 16, 2017, 09:32
Two good pieces in the Guardian/Observer today. The Observer on the Tory approach to hard Brexit, the Guardian on Labour's youth vote and Brexit.

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/15/observer-editorial-tide-is-turning-against-deceitful-and-incompetent-hard-brexiters

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/16/labour-must-foil-brexit-folly-save-economy-youth-vote
nigelswift
7400 posts

Re: Delusion, hope or a lie?
Jul 16, 2017, 09:52
Wow,
"Day after day, they stumble on, deaf to warnings on every side and blind to hard, objective facts – that delusions and jingoistic illusions do not a plan make. How did we get here? Is this the best Britain can do? The four Brexiters charged with plotting our political, economic and cultural future – Theresa May, Boris Johnson, David Davis, Liam Fox – cheered on by an undistinguished group of backbenchers, could hardly have had a less impressive three months since triggering article 50"

.... and yet a re-think is being presented as anti democratic and unpatriotic.
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
5850 posts

Re: Delusion, hope or a lie?
Jul 16, 2017, 10:39
Two things still missing in spadefuls:

1. Where they want to get to (i.e. what actually are the benefits of leaving)
2. A plan to get there
nigelswift
7400 posts

Re: Delusion, hope or a lie?
Jul 16, 2017, 10:52
thesweetcheat wrote:
what actually are the benefits of leaving


Read the bus why don't you?




Oh.
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
5850 posts

Re: Delusion, hope or a lie?
Jul 16, 2017, 11:10
I think it got repainted as TM's campaign bus, so sadly that lie has been redacted.
nigelswift
7400 posts

Re: Delusion, hope or a lie?
Jul 16, 2017, 11:22
Have you seen the telly this morning? A transition period is now mainstream but the Chancellor says 4 years, the Main Brexit negotiator says 3 years and Fox says months - and he "hopes" Europe lets us negotiate free trade agreements during the transition but doesn't know, but says anyway we'll have to have "transitional Free Trade agreements" gawd help us.

It's all bull, Europe holds every ace and now so will any free trade partners - who'll know we'll be absolutely desperate to sign quickly.
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
5850 posts

Re: Delusion, hope or a lie?
Jul 16, 2017, 12:36
I don't really watch much TV, and I only get irritated with the Sunday politics shows :)

I think any dates being bandied about for trade agreements that are less than "years" are fantasy. The only way you get to a negotiated agreement in months is by giving in to the other side's demands ...
Howburn Digger
Howburn Digger
749 posts

Re: Delusion, hope or a lie?
Jul 16, 2017, 14:00
nigelswift wrote:
thesweetcheat wrote:
what actually are the benefits of leaving


Read the bus why don't you?

Oh.


Don't believe everything you read which has been written on the side of a bus by a politician, an advertiser or a person with an agenda.

What are the benefits of trade? Does Britain actually have anything left to offer to the Europe and the World for trade? Will people in Britain still want stuff from other countries and be prepared to pay for it? Surely if we are unable to make stuff anyone wants anymore and everything is such a busted flush... then we should just nuke ourselves now and save the later pain, heartache and awful rejection.

Gove and the Tories love Free Trade, Cheap Labour and all of the benfits of EU Financial Deregulation. While some in Britain ponder the effect of Brexit on their weekly slab of Brie and Lily Allen tries to make us cry over some angry 35 year old male Eritrean ("child refugee") economic migrants camping out at Calais... Gove's Bullingdon City Boys have used EU Financial Gibberish to endlessly vade tax and slip their City-Wads into Cook Islands Financial Havens. The snouts-in-the-trough Tories are just looking for ways to ensure that they can continue trough-slurping in the legally-protected manner they have become accustomed to.
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
5850 posts

Re: Delusion, hope or a lie?
Jul 16, 2017, 14:47
OK, so that's a lot of anti-Tory criticism (which I don't necessarily disagree with). But how are we all going to be better off out of the EU? How is a poorer Britain going to stop the Tories' entirely home-grown austerity agenda? How are we going to pay for improved public services when the bottom drops out of the economy?

Still not seeing anyone anywhere explaining in simple terms for Remainer thickos like me what the benefits actually are.
nigelswift
7400 posts

Re: Delusion, hope or a lie?
Jul 16, 2017, 19:13
thesweetcheat wrote:

Still not seeing anyone anywhere explaining in simple terms for Remainer thickos like me what the benefits actually are.


Well the spiritual benefit is "taking charge of our own affairs". Personally I'm not all that enthused about that. The poor and the environment will fare worse under Tory decision making. And there's the propensity to bomb places as well.

The economic benefit is we'll perhaps get richer as a country and therefore we'll all get richer but most economists think the first is a matter of great doubt, almost a gamble, and the second is nonsense.
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