nigelswift
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Re: Delusion, hope or a lie?
Jul 02, 2017, 08:25
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The Sun admits its pro Brexit headline was a poisonous lie
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155276641181826&set=a.74680776825.96649.576651825&type=3&theater
Wonder if it was The Sun wot won it?
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thesweetcheat
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Re: Delusion, hope or a lie?
Jul 02, 2017, 08:45
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And polling suggests a lot of Britons want to keep their EU citizenship:
https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/01/poll-european-eu-rights-brexit
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Sin Agog
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Edited Jul 02, 2017, 08:58
Re: Delusion, hope or a lie?
Jul 02, 2017, 08:49
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thesweetcheat wrote:
I may have misinterpreted something down the line ('tics are way too practical for a space cadet like me), but didn't the EU pezzonovantes say a few months ago that they'd be down with Brits opting to keep their E.U. citizenship on an individual basis?
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thesweetcheat
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Re: Delusion, hope or a lie?
Jul 02, 2017, 09:07
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Yes, it was certainly being bandied about a few months ago. The problem for me is that there still seems to be this faith-based idea that we can keep all the benefits of EU membership without additional costs or restrictions, while losing the supposed negative aspects.
Over a year on and we still have no idea what the plan is, and I've still not heard a cohesive argument for how leaving the EU will be better for us either as individuals or collectively. The only argument being made by Leave to convince the 48% (and possibly rising) is "52%". That's not going to convince me or most of the other Remain voters to get behind this.
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nigelswift
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Re: Delusion, hope or a lie?
Jul 02, 2017, 09:18
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thesweetcheat wrote: The only argument being made by Leave to convince the 48% (and possibly rising) is "52%".
Yes, that and "Oh please, not another election, the democratic decision has been made" which in many cases is a very dishonest "Christ the percentages are changing and if we have another democratic vote it might not go the way I voted". Show me a Brexiter who's advocating maintaining the original decision on the grounds of democracy and I'll show you a hypocrite who doesn't believe in democracy at all.
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thesweetcheat
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Re: Delusion, hope or a lie?
Jul 02, 2017, 09:28
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Indeed. Once you crystallise a democratic result and state that it's set forever, you stop it being democracy. Even Farage was fully on board with that (until his side "won"). For democracy to work it has to be open to challenge and to ongoing re-evaluation. Anything less is not a democracy it's the beginnings of a dictatorship.
That's another thing - the constant pushing of the idea that one side are "winners" and the other "losers", both in the context of the recent referenda and elections, is the thing most guaranteed to ensure that no-one will come together. It's this mentality that perpeptuates division.
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Sin Agog
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Re: Delusion, hope or a lie?
Jul 02, 2017, 10:01
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I'm with you, but now that it's happening I really want that to be a big part of the negotiations. As someone who's always said that our mainland cousins are generally infinitely more at ease with themselves and less bogged down by neurosis, it'd be a big deal if I could still opt into keeping some sort of official connection with them. Those E.U. bigwigs implied that they'd be happy to make that happen, but I haven't heard mention of it since, so I'm not sure if it was just an offhand remark or something. Else...I may have to invent some Irish ancestry. I've got a lot of cockneys in my family and s'posedly they stemmed from Irish immigrants. How far back do you have to go before that Irish passport rule stops applying?
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thesweetcheat
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Re: Delusion, hope or a lie?
Jul 02, 2017, 10:09
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Never mind Irish citizenship, Ireland is rapidly becoming the real Brexit crisis.
Hard borders, the DUP in Westminster with no power-sharing in Stormont, and now there are questions emerging over Leave's funding and the DUP https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/01/brexit-minister-linked-to-group-that-used-loophole-to-channel-435000-to-dup.
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nigelswift
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Re: Delusion, hope or a lie?
Jul 02, 2017, 10:59
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If you have an Irish parent born in Ireland you have automatic Irish citizenship and just need to apply for an Irish passport.
If you have an Irish Grandparent but your parent was born outside Ireland you can apply for Irish citizenship and then an Irish passport.
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nigelswift
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Re: Delusion, hope or a lie?
Jul 03, 2017, 15:16
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"Six out of 10 Britons want to keep their European Union citizenship after Brexit – including the rights to live, work, study and travel in the EU – and many would be prepared to pay large sums to do so, according to research led by the London School of Economics."
Ummm, doesn't that mean that many of the 52% voted without understanding what they were voting for?
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