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phallus dei
390 posts

More on Duterte / Philippines
Apr 04, 2017, 15:08
This thread is to continue the discussion on Duterte and the Philippines. The approach of "start a thread - insult those who don't agree with you - then lock the thread when those you insult aren't bullied into submission" doesn't seem very productive.

This particular post is primarily in response to the article posted by thesweetcheat. The article describes an alleged incident from 1996, which is now coming to light. Judged on it's own, the incident is horrifying. However, reality - the world we share - is not a series of isolated incidents, each judged in abstraction. Incidents only take on meaning when put into context, and judged against other incidents. From that perspective, there are a number of issues which make the ultimate worth of the Guardian article as an "objective source" suspect.

Why bring this incident up now, 20+ years after it happened? Is this an isolated incident, or typical of Duterte's behavior? There's no way to know from the article in question. It's also unclear if this behavior deviated from what was "standard" government policy in the Philippines in 1996. Was Duterte at that point following orders?

How reliable is this person as a source? Besides giving testimony under oath, what other "evidence" does he provide? The article says that he previously denied allegations of government atrocities, but now he had a change of heart. Why should we believe him now? Simply because his claims match up with current Western media depictions of "Duterte is evil?"

Before we take him on his word, we should remember previous incidents when the Western media posted false claims about "would-be-Hitlers" - such as when Saddam ordered that incubator babies be thrown out of windows in Kuwait, or that Gadaffi was giving his soldiers Viagra to turn them into rape squads. Both of these claims, widely promoted in the western media, were false. So not only do we need to question the reliability of the man making the claim, we also need to question the reliability (and the intent) of the media that's publishing the claim.

We also need to ask ourselves how the situation in the Philippines compares with other parts of the world. Extrajuridical killings are sadly common practice throughout much of the Third World. Honduras, destabilized after a US-backed coup in 2009, is particularly bad, with environmental and labor activists (as opposed to violent drug gangs) being killed by the thousands.
http://www.commondreams.org/views/2016/03/15/us-role-honduras-coup-and-subsequent-violence
Similarly, Western-media darling Aung San Suu Kyi, long held out to be a "human rights activist," has been turning a blind-eye, and perhaps even supporting, the slow-motion genocide of the Rohingya people. It's only now, when the atrocities are too blatant to ignore, that the West is starting to admit there's a problem:
https://newrepublic.com/article/139476/real-aung-san-suu-kyi
Why then is Duterte held out for such vilification, when other leaders, who are responsible for even greater crimes, are not condemned? Is it perhaps because these other leaders are not willing to tell the West to go to hell?

We also need more information to understand the figure of 7,000 dead in Duterte's drug war. How does that figure compare to what existed before Duterte came to power? The Philippines have been fighting drug gangs and terrorists for decades. Without any previous figure for comparison, we can't see how much of a spike in killings has occurred under Duterte. We also don't know how much of that number is due to police killings, gang-on-gang violence, etc.

Likewise, we need to consider the alternatives for Duterte and the people of the Philippines. How else should they solve the problem of a rapidly rising crime rate due to drug gangs? Perhaps the country could legalize all drugs. But would drug gangs, whose power stems from their illegal activity, peacefully turn in their weapons? Another option would be to stress educational and rehabilitation programs. But when faced with a dire threat, how feasible are such long-term approaches? And does the government of the Philippines have the resources to tempt gang members to enter into civilian life? Unless we can offer a better solution, it's disingenuous to criticize Duterte in the abstract.

When presented with violence, our human instinct is to feel revulsion. But if we take an idealist approach and condemn every political figure who has committed an atrocity, I am afraid we won't have any political figures left. The whole system is soaked in blood. Whether it be Madeline Albright who affirmed that half a million children dead in Iraq due to sanctions was "worth it," or the military and intelligence aid that America provides to Saudi Arabia in its current war against Yemen, where 7 million people are on the brink of famine, the US has shown that it has no qualms about viewing vast swathes of humanity as collateral damage for its "noble aims." Is it not hypocritical to signal out Duterte when the West, particularly America, is responsible for much greater crimes?
dhajjieboy
913 posts

Edited Apr 04, 2017, 16:28
Re: More on Duterte / Philippines
Apr 04, 2017, 16:25
You are a phony, more than that though, you are an entirely hypocritical phony.
Their have been loads of threads on this particular forum that have addressed particular misgivings of the United States, The United Kingdom, and Coalition fronts.....or as you would say the "Western world".
You have been a member of this site for many years,I checked, you{along with your fellow Trump/Putin/Duterte stooge aka: Howburn Digger}, have barely voiced any opinion at all, till only recently, about how evil the "western world" is.
You back any and all of your 'assertions' with links to journalism that no one has ever heard of, or is so right wing/Marxist/anti Zionist/despot supporting bent, that there is no possible arena in which any of it would be held as credible evidence in any moderated debate or war/peacetime crimes tribunal.
And yet, you{along with fellow aforementioned 'Stooge'} go on to say that anything held as 'credible' by anyone else daring to peep above the parapet in this forum, is completely "suspect" agenda driven faux journalism/organizations.
I myself see nothing wrong with taking a candid look at individual situations as they arise on their own merits or demerits,unlike you 2 stooges who constantly seek to "nuance" causes you find 'justifiable' by obfuscation and dragging any # of other atrocities/causations/inept bungling's into your idea of a 'debate'
That's the real problem, you don't seem able to focus on a particular issue....or perhaps it just that you seek to further your own motivations by turning any discussion/arena/forum you participate/barge into/,about your own agenda....
At least to me, you and your fellow 'Stooge' have made what 'that' is very clear.
You made mention of "my act"....
Really it's the 2 of yours....the 'Marx'{ist} brothers....
I know that I will never have anything to apologize for as regards my observations of mr. duterte thus far.
Not ever.
I would be just as indignant about any shit, in any corner of the globe, that could perpetrate such heinous acts.
I think that many years of my posts quite conclusively prove that.
Yours?
Not so much.
I can't even begin to imagine the crevice you exist in as a claimed American. I can't believe that it would be possible for you to have a lunchroom conversation at a job site without everyone at the table thinking "what in insufferable" shit.
To say nothing of a family gathering.
See you both at the next Marxist gathering.....
Not.

edit: some desperately needed puctuation
Howburn Digger
Howburn Digger
749 posts

Re: More on Duterte / Philippines
Apr 04, 2017, 18:27
I am not a Marxist. Though I understand a Marxist understanding of History helps understand the Present. The Present is not made up of random events which we must randomly react to and criticise ("problem, reaction = solution"), but an evolving Now which is where we are and a direct result of where we have been.

I am no "fellow stooge" of the poster whose name bears the title of the first Amon Düül II album I ever owned.

https://www.discogs.com/Amon-D%C3%BC%C3%BCl-II-Phallus-Dei/release/519298

However I do make a "hands across the wall" nod to their taste in Krautrock and their rather astute observations and understandings of the World we all live in. And their ability to write knowledgably and in a brief and clearly expressed manner about it.

I'm afraid I just don't swallow the brown stuff that some people try to feed me. I'm afraid I don't reach for an umbrella when someone pisses down my back and tells me it's raining.
Howburn Digger
Howburn Digger
749 posts

Re: More on Duterte / Philippines
Apr 04, 2017, 19:07
dhajjieboy wrote:
You are a phony, more than that though, you are an entirely hypocritical phony.
See you both at the next Marxist gathering.....
Not.
edit: some desperately needed puctuation


.

There you go
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
5850 posts

Re: More on Duterte / Philippines
Apr 04, 2017, 20:20
When I posted the link in the other thread I was careful to use the introduction "claims to have been...". I know nothing more about the incident or the subject than what I read there, definitely not an expert on this subject at all.

Like many on here, I read everything these days with an eye to what the agenda might be, why the timing is what it is, hell even "is anything true any more" (or was it ever). I spend much of my time feeling we've fallen so far into double-think and newspeak that I can't even trust "up" or "down".

But all of that accepted, if true it's horrifying no matter what the end or justification might be. Even if that is my view from the privilege of the UK with no personal experience of what conditions must be like in the middle of all this. There must be a better way, surely?
phallus dei
390 posts

Edited Apr 04, 2017, 21:52
Re: More on Duterte / Philippines
Apr 04, 2017, 21:51
thesweetcheat wrote:
When I posted the link in the other thread I was careful to use the introduction "claims to have been...". I know nothing more about the incident or the subject than what I read there, definitely not an expert on this subject at all.

Like many on here, I read everything these days with an eye to what the agenda might be, why the timing is what it is, hell even "is anything true any more" (or was it ever). I spend much of my time feeling we've fallen so far into double-think and newspeak that I can't even trust "up" or "down".

But all of that accepted, if true it's horrifying no matter what the end or justification might be. Even if that is my view from the privilege of the UK with no personal experience of what conditions must be like in the middle of all this. There must be a better way, surely?


I certainly didn't intend for my post to call into question your judgment, but rather to use the article you linked to as an example to highlight what I consider to be important issues to keep in mind when dealing with this topic (or any historical / political topic). I saw from your previous comments that you were already aware that ultimately, the accusation rested on someone's claims.

I share your confusion regarding what is "true." It's uncomfortable to realize that ultimately, we can't be certain what's going on, and that our sources of information are feeding us biased info designed to trigger a specific result. I don't think one can ever be certain of anything. At most, we have to aim for a considerable degree of probability.

A good approach to dealing with any issue is to first try to gain as much info as possible, consider conflicting views, and then, try to situate that issue within the broader context of the world. For Duterte, that could involve reading the various articles that people posted on the previous thread - they are all biased in one way or another. After that, try to develop a personal understanding of the issue that seems most probable. Then, see if the understanding you have developed regarding Duterte also helps you to understand other events in the world, or if other events seem to contradict your view. If the latter, then change your view of Duterte accordingly. The goal is to develop a "world view" that helps you to interpret the "big picture", and which is also capable of withstanding intellectual scrutiny.

I agree, the world-as-it-is is absolutely horrifying. But we first need to acknowledge the true state of affairs if we are ever going to change it. Otherwise, we will simply be deceived by one "leader" after another, without ever fully realizing our potential. I believe that at some point, we (humanity) will create a system that actually "works" for the majority of the Earth's people. What that future system will be like, I don't know. But before we can create it, we first have to realize what we're up against.
phallus dei
390 posts

Re: More on Duterte / Philippines
Apr 04, 2017, 23:09
dhajjieboy wrote:
You are a phony, more than that though, you are an entirely hypocritical phony.
Their have been loads of threads on this particular forum that have addressed particular misgivings of the United States, The United Kingdom, and Coalition fronts.....or as you would say the "Western world".
You have been a member of this site for many years,I checked, you{along with your fellow Trump/Putin/Duterte stooge aka: Howburn Digger}, have barely voiced any opinion at all, till only recently, about how evil the "western world" is.
You back any and all of your 'assertions' with links to journalism that no one has ever heard of, or is so right wing/Marxist/anti Zionist/despot supporting bent, that there is no possible arena in which any of it would be held as credible evidence in any moderated debate or war/peacetime crimes tribunal.
And yet, you{along with fellow aforementioned 'Stooge'} go on to say that anything held as 'credible' by anyone else daring to peep above the parapet in this forum, is completely "suspect" agenda driven faux journalism/organizations.
I myself see nothing wrong with taking a candid look at individual situations as they arise on their own merits or demerits,unlike you 2 stooges who constantly seek to "nuance" causes you find 'justifiable' by obfuscation and dragging any # of other atrocities/causations/inept bungling's into your idea of a 'debate'
That's the real problem, you don't seem able to focus on a particular issue....or perhaps it just that you seek to further your own motivations by turning any discussion/arena/forum you participate/barge into/,about your own agenda....
At least to me, you and your fellow 'Stooge' have made what 'that' is very clear.
You made mention of "my act"....
Really it's the 2 of yours....the 'Marx'{ist} brothers....
I know that I will never have anything to apologize for as regards my observations of mr. duterte thus far.
Not ever.
I would be just as indignant about any shit, in any corner of the globe, that could perpetrate such heinous acts.
I think that many years of my posts quite conclusively prove that.
Yours?
Not so much.
I can't even begin to imagine the crevice you exist in as a claimed American. I can't believe that it would be possible for you to have a lunchroom conversation at a job site without everyone at the table thinking "what in insufferable" shit.
To say nothing of a family gathering.
See you both at the next Marxist gathering.....
Not.

edit: some desperately needed puctuation


Yes, I have been on this site since the beginning, though posted only rarely until recently. My sudden upturn in posts stems in part from being inspired by the Trump presidency, which I see as a sign that more Americans are waking up and beginning to resist the dominant narrative. For the first time in a while, I actually feel inspired by domestic events in the US.

The sources I provide come from a variety of media outlets. In a previous thread when you recited the standard MSM narrative about the Syrian war, I countered your argument with posts from the BBC, the London Review of Books, and the Guardian. And included in the first Duterte thread were statistics drawn from the United Nations. Claiming that I only quote from "obscure" sources shows that you haven't bothered to look at the links I provide.

I also take issue with your claim that I attack anyone "daring to peep above the parapet" in this forum. There are any number of debates / issues that I don't comment upon here, either because I'm not particularly interested in them, or because I feel I don't know much about the topic. When I do comment about something, I naturally try to draw parallels with other events, because it is only through such comparison that events begin to make "sense." Otherwise, it is just idealistic discussion about one singular event after another in vague abstraction.

Out of the people who commented on the previous Duterte thread, the only one who had difficulty carrying on a debate was you. You were the one who employed insults and then locked the thread when it wasn't going your way. It is fine if you think my views are shit. Maybe they are, and I can learn from what you have to offer. But neither I, you, or anyone else on this forum can gain anything from reading a "debate" that consists predominately of angry tantrums.
Ethericat
67 posts

Re: More on Duterte / Philippines
Apr 05, 2017, 08:50
phallus dei wrote:

I agree, the world-as-it-is is absolutely horrifying. But we first need to acknowledge the true state of affairs if we are ever going to change it. Otherwise, we will simply be deceived by one "leader" after another, without ever fully realizing our potential. I believe that at some point, we (humanity) will create a system that actually "works" for the majority of the Earth's people. What that future system will be like, I don't know. But before we can create it, we first have to realize what we're up against.


As someone who very rarely comments here, may I just repeat your last paragraph? Well said. Irrespective of the topic in discussion, and applied to the entire current state of global affairs, I wholeheartedly agree.
drewbhoy
drewbhoy
2459 posts

Re: More on Duterte / Philippines
Apr 05, 2017, 08:59
As for Liam Fox, not very good :-(
Howburn Digger
Howburn Digger
749 posts

Re: More on Duterte / Philippines
Apr 05, 2017, 11:58
drewbhoy wrote:
As for Liam Fox, not very good :-(


Really it comes down to

*You are "with" the Narco-Gangs or you are against them. They will not live alongside you in Peace.

*You are with ISIS and Abu Sayyaf or you are against them. They will not live alongside you in Peace.

Duterte and the People of the Pilippines are against them. They have the mandate. Personally I would toss Liam Fox and his gun running, arms dealing boyfriend Adam Werrity in the nearest septic tank and close the lid. But with the International Narco Industry, ISIS and the Usual Suspects lined up against him, Duterte needs all the positive comments he can get in his country's existential war against Chaos, Narco-Rule and the Face-Peelers and the blunt-bladed Neck-Hackers. Imagine Liam Fox as your only friend... I feel like I should send Duterte flowers or a card or something.
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