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tjj
tjj
3606 posts

Edited Mar 17, 2017, 15:30
Re: Damn it.
Mar 17, 2017, 15:13
drewbhoy wrote:

I think I know what HD is getting at, and I disagree with a lot of what he sometimes says, is that 56 out of 59 MPs represent the people who live in Scotland. May has no mandate up here. At Edinburgh the Scottish Green Party (my lot) and the SNP, parties who support independence NOT nationalism are the majority. Scottish Labour For Independence are also beginning to grow.

However Scotland has continually voted Labour in the past and that has done us no good at all. The Torylite just pander to the Westminster system. We didn't vote the Tories in up here but we look south and wonder what the hell the electorate is up to.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2015/results
There is a map in the above link that shows the shocking amount of blue south of the border. I personally voted for Ed Miliband in the last election as did many people I know so the map doesn't reflect proportional representation at all. I totally agree with you about the Tory majority and don't understand how they keep getting in. In my town (a fairly average place) they run the town council; as well as completely decimating the library service and trying to sell off the parks (so far unsuccessfully) they have set the highest Council Tax increase in the UK. Needless to say there are no local elections this year. Will the majority forget by next year I wonder. I won't.
Howburn Digger
Howburn Digger
986 posts

Re: Damn it.
Mar 17, 2017, 18:52
tjj wrote:
Howburn Digger wrote:


From the hoisting of the Red Flag in George Square in 1919 just before the British Govt sent the tanks in against its own people... to the flying of the Palestinian Flag over George Square... George Square has seen many flags hoisted. Long may it continue.


Very eloquent HD. I'm not getting drawn into Scottish Independence arguments but want to say something I've been struggling to articulate for a while. Have just watched Ken Loach's "I, Daniel Blake" - set in Newcastle, not a million miles from the Scottish border. I don't get how being the other side of the border in England suddenly makes people not worth thinking about - almost the enemy. Because that is how you make us feel - to be English means we are 'petty little people' dancing to the tune of our Westminster masters. When really most of us are just like you. I believe in Socialism; a decent standard of health, welfare and education for everyone in the UK. It will never happen while we have a Tory Government continually feathering the nests of bankers and big business. Would you not consider standing together with us Scotland, your baffled and bewildered neighbours - to make things fairer, better for all.

I think I know your answer.


Sorry. The discussion isn't about people living just over the border in Newcastle. They live in Eng;land not Scotland. I don't look on any English people as "the enemy". Lordy! It is just that they don't live in this country. Our respective countries have been part of a Union for a couple of centuries. It hasn't worked for Scotland for forty years and Scotland has voiced its discontent about it.
I (HD) certainly don't make you feel like 'petty little people' dancing to the tune of your Westminster masters. If you feel that way you should maybe do something about it.
I'm glad you believe in Socialism and health, welfare and education for everyone in the UK. Scotland has always voted that way. It did nothing for us and Westminster saw to that.
Scotland isn't going anywhere. It is staying right where it is. If the Scottish People vote for Independence - so be it. If not - then so be it.

Maybe you should ask the Scottish People to consider "standing together with us, your baffled and bewildered neighbours - to make things fairer, better for all."

I cannot speak for the Scottish People. Sorry if this reply disappoints you but whatever answer you think you were going to get...
tjj wrote:
I think I know your answer.
Well I don't have one for you. You seem to be looking for a Socialist Government in Westminster sometime in the future and hope to get the Scottish People to jump on your dreamboat and wait until it happens. Ask them. Can you imagine their answer?
carol27
747 posts

Re: Damn it.
Mar 17, 2017, 19:41
drewbhoy wrote:
carol27 wrote:
tjj wrote:
Howburn Digger wrote:
thispoison wrote:

IndyRef#1 was a great time to live in Scotland. It woke up and politicised a mass of people who had never really cared to exercise their vote before. On both sides.
It destroyed a Scottish Labour who had utterly failed the people of Scotland since the dawn of the Thatcher-era. And drove the contemptible Scottish Conservatives to become the "No Surrender" party in a failed attempt to "Ulster-ise" Scotland. Bigotry proving to be the real last refuge of the Scoundrel. And it showed up the BBC and entire British media for the lying sacks of shit they actually are.
It did leave some unfinished business though, which will be concluded with a positive vote for Independence in around eighteen months.


@thispoison - That is quite lovely! I love it! Indyref was a brilliant time. I loved it all. I can only add that the lying sack of pus David Smug Cameron slipped the cherry on the cake (or should it be the turd onto the porridge) by calling the EU Referendum afterwards. The joyous, glorious, beautiful irony of the twisted bluff is not missed by anyone North of The Wall. Cameron (who actually loved the EU with its cheap labour, free corporate operations, free trade etc) called the bluff and lost - spectacularly. But here... in the North... (beyond the grapeline...) we fudgepacked Cameron on the exact issue he tried to Project Fear us with in the first place ("if Scotland votes for Independence then it will be out of the EU"). So Scotland doesn't vote to leave the EU and now we're going to have another vote on Independence. You were putting out fire with gasoline Mr Cameron... Mr Cameron? Mr Cameron? Where did that Mr Cameron disappear to? He's gone away? Oh well... oh dear - how sad - never mind.

From the hoisting of the Red Flag in George Square in 1919 just before the British Govt sent the tanks in against its own people... to the flying of the Palestinian Flag over George Square... George Square has seen many flags hoisted. Long may it continue.


Very eloquent HD. I'm not getting drawn into Scottish Independence arguments but want to say something I've been struggling to articulate for a while. Have just watched Ken Loach's "I, Daniel Blake" - set in Newcastle, not a million miles from the Scottish border. I don't get how being the other side of the border in England suddenly makes people not worth thinking about - almost the enemy. Because that is how you make us feel - to be English means we are 'petty little people' dancing to the tune of our Westminster masters. When really most of us are just like you. I believe in Socialism; a decent standard of health, welfare and education for everyone in the UK. It will never happen while we have a Tory Government continually feathering the nests of bankers and big business. Would you not consider standing together with us Scotland, your baffled and bewildered neighbours - to make things fairer, better for all.

I think I know your answer.


Here, here, or hear, hear depending tjj. HD I consider myself to be "North" " of the border, in regard to the local council expenditure allowances;the utter disregard in view of local opinion, for eg the railroading through 're the recent fracking decisions in Lancashire; the preponderance of food banks; the very obvious increase of the homeless on our streets. I could go on. I feel disenfranchised. I feel upset. I long for freedom from central tory govt. I vote against it & protest. My point is..I suppose I don't believe it is just the Scottish, Welsh, Irish, Cornish people who are being shafted.


I think I know what HD is getting at, and I disagree with a lot of what he sometimes says, is that 56 out of 59 MPs represent the people who live in Scotland. May has no mandate up here. At Edinburgh the Scottish Green Party (my lot) and the SNP, parties who support independence NOT nationalism are the majority. Scottish Labour For Independence are also beginning to grow.

However Scotland has continually voted Labour in the past and that has done us no good at all. The Torylite just pander to the Westminster system. We didn't vote the Tories in up here but we look south and wonder what the hell the electorate is up to.


Yes so do I. It's mental :)
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
6200 posts

Re: Damn it.
Mar 19, 2017, 08:41
The problem for me is that there are two countries now. Not England and Scotland but the polar opposites of political belief. The EU ref has highlighted exactly how split the UK is on fundamental beliefs over health and social care, immigration, workers' rights and standards of living. Labour under Corbyn have policies that many could support but which equally many seem horrified by. The Tories continue to apeal to the majority of English voters over any alternatives.

Unless we ever get proportional representation, I don'the see how this can be reconciled. I think any hopes of healing the divides now are decades away.
sanshee
sanshee
1080 posts

Re: Damn it.
Mar 19, 2017, 10:14
Recent ScotCen Survey illustrates attitudes in Scotland are not much different to those in England in many areas.
Again, don't believe the hype:)
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
6200 posts

Re: Damn it.
Mar 19, 2017, 10:36
The difference is that the Scots are prepared to vote differently to change things, whereas in England the only "alternative" seems to be UKIP. Whatever your views of the SNP they have offered Scottish voters a genuine alternative, with the result that both Labour and Tories are spent forces there, at least for the foreseeable future.

Speculating now - if Scotland were to become independent, I imagine that the SNP would find it much more difficult to keep that level of control and that new voting lines would begin to emerge - I wonder if an independent Scotland would consider proportional representation? I think there is a healthy undercurrent of greens and other progressives beyond the SNP that could work together to form a properly representative coalition.

I suspect the Lib Dems will re-emerge in parts of England, which won't actually help Labour but may at least restrict the Tories overall majority.
sanshee
sanshee
1080 posts

Re: Damn it.
Mar 19, 2017, 10:47
UKIP in England have one measly MP, I hope you have noticed that.
Scottish Greens must be the only Greens on the planet who believe in borders.
Well before the EU vote, they still believed in separating Scotland from England.
Caroline Lucas would be happy to work with them, they blank her.
Also, as much as she is a strong believer in the EU she has the honesty to criticise the EU Canada CETA deal on the grounds of it being no more Than a corporate grab on public services.
Patrick Harvie has a striking lack of opinion about any of it.
Also, he did not kick up much of a fuss over SNP support for a third runway at Heathrow.
The word 'progressive' is used so lazily these days.
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
6200 posts

Edited Mar 19, 2017, 11:52
Re: Damn it.
Mar 19, 2017, 11:51
UKIP have one measly MP, yes, and I hope their appeal is diminishing. But they have taken a sizeable chunk out of the working class Labour vote in England and there is no doubt at all that the only reason we have had the EU referendum and are on course for the "hard" Brexit is because of Tory fears of UKIP and populism.

As for "progressive" I agree to a point, but surely that's better than the inward looking, austerity championing, regressive Tory policies that will drag us back 50 years.
sanshee
sanshee
1080 posts

Edited Mar 19, 2017, 12:48
Re: Damn it.
Mar 19, 2017, 12:22
UKIP just failed to gain a seat, again.
They are a busted flush.
Ironically, your fears of a constant Tory govt are no different to mine.
Why don't I support independence then?
Because if Scottish Nationalism prevails so to does English Nationalism, more than likely in the shape of an even more ramped up Tory party.
Now it's only Engerland why should I care?
Because like it or lump it, or economies are tied closer the anywhere else on the entire planet.
Scotland does twice as much trade with the rest of the UK Tha the rest of the world, and four times as much than it does with the EU.
The cultural pull,saddens me, but the practicalities for the both of us are fairly bleak.
No love lost, Scotland would be at the perpetual mercy of a Tory govt we absolutely have no control over.
EDIT: Only this time one with a brand new agenda.
BTW opinion polls constantly show we do not want independence, another today just said so.
Petition FWIW coming along, SNP are staging a phoney war on false premises.
Nothing new then.
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
6200 posts

Re: Damn it.
Mar 19, 2017, 14:13
I must admit to being surprised that the push for Indyref2 has escalated quite so fast, previously Sturgeon has always said they would wait until there was a clear lead in the polls over a period of time (which there isn't).

But ultimately it's May's approach of Brexit at any cost that is driving Sturgeon to push on I think.
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