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carol27
747 posts

Re: the corbyn vs smith debate
Aug 05, 2016, 16:43
Yes, everybody knows Jeremy's splitting the Labour party up...no, you & your ilk are; dickhead.
Markoid
Markoid
1621 posts

Edited Aug 05, 2016, 18:04
Re: the corbyn vs smith debate
Aug 05, 2016, 17:56
UNISON are asking us members to nominate. By nominate, we mean who would you prefer. That's a slight movement on behalf of David Prentis I think. It's still one member/affiliate one vote though. I still think Jeremy should be Labour leader however. I also still think that the general populous wouldn't have him as Prime Minister. Me included. He's too old. Labour needs a young vibrant leader, and there is Jack or Jaqueline shit around.

For that reason alone, I shall vote for Jeremy, but The Labour Party needs someone better...and he or she ain't there.
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
6200 posts

Re: the corbyn vs smith debate
Aug 05, 2016, 20:25
Rhiannon wrote:
[Owen Smith] keeps going on about 'we need to be in government' but I still don't understand why he thinks he's more able to win a bloody election than the person he disagrees with.


The problem with that statement from Smith is that it almost inevitable finishes with the unspoken "... at any cost". There's certainly more than a hint there that winning power is more important than the principles you might sacrifice to get there.

I would rather we had an effective socialist/progressive opposition trying to move the political consensus back towards the left than an "in government" centre/right watered-down Labour administration which carries on with Thatcher's programme as Blair did.
Markoid
Markoid
1621 posts

Edited Aug 06, 2016, 08:54
Re: the corbyn vs smith debate
Aug 05, 2016, 22:44
Let's be honest. When Labour were in power many moons ago, did anybody notice any difference? The civil service run the country, and that ain't gonna change anytime soon.
IanB
IanB
6761 posts

Edited Aug 06, 2016, 10:51
Re: the corbyn vs smith debate
Aug 06, 2016, 10:12
Markoid wrote:
Let's be honest. When Labour were in power many moons ago, did anybody notice any difference? The civil service run the country, and that ain't gonna change anytime soon.


Actually I did.

The problem with New Labour is not that they were secret Tories (whatever people say they really weren't and my politics are well to the left of Blair) but that they were content to address only some of the most egregious and offensive injustices (bringing in a minimum wage for example, slowing income inequality, increasing access to university places, cleaning up the hospitals, expanding apprenticeships, introducing EMAs, reducing child poverty - all important stuff) while otherwise sticking to the centre right consensus as to how a modern economy should be run.

They focused a lot on citizenry (for want of a better word) and old wounds - devolution, human rights act, freedom of information, Good Friday Agreement - but did nothing to repeal the anti trade union laws or correct the results of the sell off in state owned housing.

New Labour was basically the clean-up squad, brought in once people were finally sickened by the most disgusting elements of the Greed is Good era, doing that work pretty effectively (if only within the previously stated self-imposed limitations) but without actually ever saying "Greed is Bad". Those words needed saying and that marker laid down for the future, just as much as the Bloody Sunday or Hillsborough apologies, but were never uttered.

You can see some of the same in Cameron except his liberal actions were restricted to those that wouldn't involve any transfer of wealth from rich to poor - gay marriage , Bloody Sunday apology and the AV referendum being good examples.
Captain Starlet
Captain Starlet
1110 posts

Re: the corbyn vs smith debate
Aug 06, 2016, 11:38
During the leadership elections last year I voted for Corbyn because I felt he was the one to steer the party back in the right direction as it didn't offer anything that attracted people. For me it wasn't a matter of whether he could win an election it was a party issue. Now I've changed somewhat, I do think he can win an election, and he's attracting a lot of younger people into the party and other supporters because he's talking about things that the younger generation have never experienced in their lives and it's obviously resonating.
Markoid
Markoid
1621 posts

Edited Aug 06, 2016, 12:33
Re: the corbyn vs smith debate
Aug 06, 2016, 12:33
IanB wrote:
Markoid wrote:
Let's be honest. When Labour were in power many moons ago, did anybody notice any difference? The civil service run the country, and that ain't gonna change anytime soon.


Actually I did.

The problem with New Labour is not that they were secret Tories (whatever people say they really weren't and my politics are well to the left of Blair) but that they were content to address only some of the most egregious and offensive injustices (bringing in a minimum wage for example, slowing income inequality, increasing access to university places, cleaning up the hospitals, expanding apprenticeships, introducing EMAs, reducing child poverty - all important stuff) while otherwise sticking to the centre right consensus as to how a modern economy should be run.

They focused a lot on citizenry (for want of a better word) and old wounds - devolution, human rights act, freedom of information, Good Friday Agreement - but did nothing to repeal the anti trade union laws or correct the results of the sell off in state owned housing.

New Labour was basically the clean-up squad, brought in once people were finally sickened by the most disgusting elements of the Greed is Good era, doing that work pretty effectively (if only within the previously stated self-imposed limitations) but without actually ever saying "Greed is Bad". Those words needed saying and that marker laid down for the future, just as much as the Bloody Sunday or Hillsborough apologies, but were never uttered.

You can see some of the same in Cameron except his liberal actions were restricted to those that wouldn't involve any transfer of wealth from rich to poor - gay marriage , Bloody Sunday apology and the AV referendum being good examples.


Well thought out, but personally I don't see much of a difference between Tory and Labour. The Tories under Thatcher was a diferent ball game though. She really screwed the working class. It's quite amazing that actually happened. No wonder Scotland votes SNP these days. And Scotland is progressive, nomatter what anycunt says.

A hangover of abuse would be puting it lightly.
jb lamptoast-morsley
jb lamptoast-morsley
2447 posts

Re: the corbyn vs smith debate
Aug 07, 2016, 12:48
The post by Stray above was quite insightful with Peter Mandelson giving his views of the direction the Labour Party should take and commenting on the shortcomings of New Labour. They were able to create lots of wealth, but the trickle down effect is patent nonsense. Incidentally I was watching the Film The Divide (based on the book The Spirit Level) recently and there is a telling statement from Blair to the effect that there is nothing wrong with people wanting to be as rich as they desire. Mandelson actually approved of the direction Corbyn was taking the Labour Party with its anti austerity stance! (whilst questioning his ability to lead).
spencer
spencer
3065 posts

If you can bear to watch...
Aug 17, 2016, 03:43
Corbyn and Sm*th are debating in front of a studio audience today on the Victoria Derbyshire programme on BeebNews (09-00 - 11-00)
IanB
IanB
6761 posts

Re: If you can bear to watch...
Aug 17, 2016, 08:53
spencer wrote:
Corbyn and Sm*th are debating in front of a studio audience today on the Victoria Derbyshire programme on BeebNews (09-00 - 11-00)


I can't face it. It's going to be kind of like what happens when the keeper of an away team takes a goal kick in front of the home end. Two hours of Smith agreeing with everything JC proposes but with "you're shit .... aaaah" as a caveat.
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