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MonkeyBoy 1008 posts |
Oct 28, 2002, 15:03
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Leave Nationalism to the Scotish Nationalists. Which Necro rightly points out were complete Tories - who have only dressed in Vaguely left clothes since the reaction up North to Mrs T. Leave petty national chauvinism to capitalists, socialists should be above such things, as Marx said 'The Workers have no country'. Nationalist movements should only be of real concern to socialists in places like Yugoslavia (during Bosnia) or Chechnia. Tony B maybe a complete tosser but Milosevich or Putin he ain't. Nationalism is important when it is a struggle for Liberation. You can hardly talk of liberation in a national sense in Scotland. Scotish workers don't have any the less rights than workers anywhere else in Britain.
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anthonyqkiernan 7087 posts |
Oct 28, 2002, 15:15
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In my experience, most politrical parties/unions/whatever have their own organised factions or tendancies withing them.
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YerArseInParsley 365 posts |
Oct 28, 2002, 15:39
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"You can hardly talk of liberation in a national sense in Scotland. Scotish workers don't have any the less rights than workers anywhere else in Britain." Thats arguable, but thats not the only criteria for talking in terms of a liberation struggle. I'd also include other criteria such as healthcare, investment, stripmining of resources, inequitable legal and social provision when combined with a subsumed and subjectated state. In these terms the fact that many here feel Scotland is better off independent seems quite legitimate.
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YerArseInParsley 365 posts |
Oct 28, 2002, 16:01
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"The Scots overwhelmingly voted tory pre-thatcher Hahahahhaa Necropolist you are normally so accurate! Do I detect a hint of national envy creeping into your revolutionary reasoning ? The last time the Tories came close to Labour was the 1950's, which was also the last time the SNP could be called Tartan Tories. While that is Pre-Thatcher, Pre-Thatcher covers 6000 years of Scottish histroy so its a bit inaccurate. Even then, it was a split vote, and even then the SNP incorporated elements of both the right and the left. "If Scotland ever did get full independence, then, personally, I’ve little doubt the SNP would go back to their old ways, and be forthright defenders of Scottish capitalism." Agreed. But the first thing they would do upon independence is to have a new Scottish election. Then we Scots can choose to ditch the current career politicians. Whether we will is debatable, I'm happy to argue for. "And remind me, who was it rioted against the Poll Tax (causing Tommy S to utter his loathsome scab comments mentioned above), and who was it who simply went for a wee stroll around the park?" You are either ignorant of the year of mass-dissent that the test run of the poll-tax caused in Scotland, or you choose to pretend to be ignorant, I'm not sure which. It was in Scotland that the anti-poll tax tactics were perfected ( blocking streets to stop Sheriff's Officers seizing goods etc) and I bet there were more than 10% of the poll tax rioters in London were Scottish ( In Scotland the term Poll Tax Riot could refer to any number of events up here, but I appreciate that it isn't worth remembering unless it happened near to the centre of Empire). You seem to assume that the reason the poll tax was scrapped was because a few english proles rioted - but at that point already Scotland was on the verge of revolution and they ignored english proles throughout the eighties. Perhaps you are right, perhaps Scotland in constant revolt is less of a factor than a few Cockneys causing mischief for a day. Its the old argument, one protestor in the States is worth 10 in England, 100 in Scotland and 1000 in the third world. Scotland has a loyalist right wing working class minority, but that stance is taken through the religious grounds echoing from the north of Ireland, not from reason.
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YerArseInParsley 365 posts |
Oct 28, 2002, 16:03
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Agreed. 3 people = 6 agendas.
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MonkeyBoy 1008 posts |
Oct 28, 2002, 16:09
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Independence maybe - but I ain't having it dressed up as socialism. Liberation - if Scotland are in favour of independence then why don't they return a nationalist majority to the regional assembly and call a referendum. It's not like Palestine y'know. Oh and workers are getting a bad deal on health care etc, throughout Britian. It has nothing to do with ethnic discrimination or being second class citizens like in many places where nationalist movements are worthy of support.
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YerArseInParsley 365 posts |
Oct 28, 2002, 17:34
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'No dogs. No blacks. No Irish' I'm afraid you've bought into the myth that racial discrimination in Britain is less insiduous or less patently evil than racial discrimination elsewhere. Same rules apply. Why is this different that Palestine, other than force of opposition and force of repression being lesser ?
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MonkeyBoy 1008 posts |
Oct 28, 2002, 19:09
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At one time Blacks were slaves and areas in Africa were torn apart by Colonialism. The Irish have been shot at, starved and been the victims of armed oppression. Scotland has been all too compliant in the British Union. Don't think you ever used to see signs saying 'No Dogs, No Blacks, No Irish, No Scots'. They love being in the union and whinging about the English - never come close yet to voting them out tho. The point is control through the media & conditioning through society is very subtle in Western countries and can not be looked at in Black & White terms of oppression like in some countries. Maybe it would be like Palestine if the English drove The Scots out of their land and they were forced to live huddled and crammed in Refugee Camps in The Shetland Islands. I admit I would like to see the look on religous, right wing loyalist faces if Scotland went independent. But to be honest for a party that claims to be socialist it is a distraction from the main aim of removing the capitalist system. Also I think a Capitalist, Independant Scotland would be quite capable of generating it's own career politicians. Do you imply that the Scots are somehow better and superior and that Scottish Politicians will be incapable of careerism.
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grufty jim 1978 posts |
Oct 28, 2002, 19:28
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> I'm afraid you've bought into the myth that > racial discrimination in Britain is less insiduous > or less patently evil than racial discrimination > elsewhere. > > Same rules apply. Why is this different than > Palestine, other than force of opposition and > force of repression being lesser? > i know sod all about Scottish politics, or the specific socio-cultural issues faced by people north of the border. This isn't English parochialism; i'm Irish... the only reason i know anything about English politics is cos i happen to live here. So i don't want to to give the impression that i'm making any comment on the Scottish issue here (cos i try not to comment on stuff i know zero about). What i would like to do though, is question the statement you made (quoted above) YAIP. You ask "why is this different to Palestine?" In essence buying into the myth (to use your phrase) of what one of my philosophy lecturers refers to as "the equivalency of injustice". You see racial discrimination *is* less "patently evil" in Britain than other places (let's use Palestine as the comparison, though there are others). You are essentially arguing (perhaps unwittingly) that the "simple act of discrimination" is the sum total of the 'evil' being done here. Because that is what both situations share, and i'm not arguing against that (though as i say - i have no conception of the actual issue of Scottish discrimination). However, that single similarity (that acts of oppression occur in both places for racial reasons) is *not* the sum total of the issue. Indeed, it is - in truth - a tiny issue. Let's take anti-semitism. Hitler killed 6 million people because they were jews. That is anti-semitism at work. A hypothetical waiter refuses to seat a couple in his restaurant because he knows they are jewish ("sorry", he says, "we're booked solid tonight"). That is also anti-semitism. A man in the restaurant (who has many jewish friends and will live his entire life being nothing but outwardly pleasant to every jew he meets) inwardly smirks to watch the couple turned away. That too is anti-semitism. Are all three equivalent "save for the force used"? Like fuck are they. The primary (overshadowing all others) "evil" in Hitler's act is not the anti-semitic motivation. If it were; then the man who smirks that once in his life is just as "patently evil" as Hitler. No, the primary injustice is the torture and murder of 6 million. Similarly, drawing an equivalency between Scotland and Palestine simply because of a identity of motive, is ignoring the fact that palestinian people are murdered daily by their oppressors, live herded into refugee camps under incredible curfews, have their infrastructure systematically destroyed by an occupying military, are subjected to random internment and end up reaching for an automatic weapon before they are 10. Unless there's some serious media censorship going on; i suspect that's not happening in Scotland. All just my opinion, y'dig?
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YerArseInParsley 365 posts |
Oct 28, 2002, 19:44
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"I admit I would like to see the look on religous, right wing loyalist faces if Scotland went independent. But to be honest for a party that claims to be socialist it is a distraction from the main aim of removing the capitalist system." Yes, I agree, but the stated aim of the SNP is independence first, socialism after. Or are you talking about the SSP ? In that case, yes, you are right true socialism can't come before nationality, but a real scottish revolution would be left wing in UK terms. "Also I think a Capitalist, Independant Scotland would be quite capable of generating it's own career politicians. Do you imply that the Scots are somehow better and superior and that Scottish Politicians will be incapable of careerism." Unfortunately I can't claim that the Scots are free from career politicians. Anyone who thinks they are a good leader can obviously be dismissed from the short list of leadeship IMO. I hope Scotland, when it eventually clears itself of English influence also clears itself of corporate subjectation, but that is more my hope than my reasoned analysis. Yes, once we are free we will be reliant upon the few free voices in England and elsewhere supporting us. Thats why I am talking to you, begging understanding. I think Scotland has a good shot at being free simply because the US views us as a progenator of thier own culture, ie a free scotland is likely to incur gunships than any other country. By my reckoning, half of Scotland will have to immigrate to allow full Socialism here, despite what the polls say. By my reckoning, we are a few years away from that yet. What do you all think ? Will Scotland free itself, and will its independence mean anything ?
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