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MonkeyBoy 1008 posts |
Sep 12, 2002, 16:15
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Yep, the SPGB are certainly peculiar and eccentric - and never been more than a handful of people in nearly a century. Total achetypal sect impossibilists, with zero appeal. Anyway, Tommy Sheridan. I think he does fancy himself as a would-be future Labour Dictator. There seems to be a bit of cult of personality about him. Remember how Militant grouped around the (un)heroic Derrick Hatton round the mid 80s, and he turned out to be a right W*nker. Arthur Scargill would still like to be a Labour Dictator, but comes from a Stalinist background rather than a Trotsyist one. Arthur Scargill led the miners to the biggest defeat in British Working class history. Hope TS & SSP don't lead the Scottish working class to an even bigger one. On a another note, I feel the need to get more active in someway. I do not wish to join a (un)Democratic Centralralist group, but would like to be more involved. At one time you could have just joined the left of the Labour Party. Globalise Resistance seems to be something more wheeled out for anti-capitalist events and the SA seems to be wheeled out as an electoral intervention front. I don't know, will the SA ever evolve (or has the potential to evolve) into a Left Party. The SA activity round here seems to be zero at the moment, but come election time you might notice them around these parts. I dunno necropolist is the SA worth getting involved with? |
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necropolist 1689 posts |
Sep 12, 2002, 16:38
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as i like to call them, for no good reason. dunno...where are you? i'm sure you've said before, but me and my rememberry....... round here its a fairly active group. our local meeting (Burngreave SA, based around one council ward) had 8 people there - only two of which were actually members of any group (both WP in this case). We're trying to make sure it isn't just an electoral front, so are doing leafletting for the Iraq demo, and a local meeting, and organising stuff with the Defend Council Housing campaign. Throughout Sheffield, well there is only one active local branch, but a whole bunch of general activity. Lots of (really fucking thrilling) debates on the euro at the moment. I'm tryoing not to get too involved in that really (tho I'm a fairly firm 'no', well me gf is a very serious 'active abstention', ooh it makes for some right argies in the bed!!) The SWP are a bit weird, they could easilly dominate it, as they have more members than the rest of us put together, but refuse to do so. So they don't even vote in favour of there own positins quite often. They (seemingly) want to make sure that it isn't just them running it, as that would be pointless, but it means they behave somewhat irritatingly at times. And then often they just don't bother turning up, especially at local meetings. its not clear whether they want to build there own branches or SA ones locally, or both, or neither. WP are basically alright, but a bit ultra-leftist sometimes. AWL are, well, the AWL, bit fucking irritating, but that's just their politics. There are bods from a few other groups along too, but all as individuals. Overwhelmingly there is a decent feel of people trying to work together, and trying not to be sectarian (tho when all the groups apart from the SWP get together, it does become a bit of a bitchfest). Discussion is serious but not desperately tedious or absurdly abstract. Tho if you get on one of the e-mail lists you'll be bound to find at least on freak n fruitcake! Are they worthwhile? Well......I can't see any real alternative at the moment. And the far left has been held back (has held itself back) for bloody years with its splits and sectarianism. The SA is, I think, a serious attempt to overcome that, so I think it's worth supporting. And fight to make it genuinely democratic
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YerArseInParsley 365 posts |
Sep 13, 2002, 14:42
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"Scottish Nationalism could divide English workers against Scottish workers." Too late, Thatcher beat them too it!
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YerArseInParsley 365 posts |
Sep 13, 2002, 14:58
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"Scotland, no of course it's not opressed in the same way India was" Thanks for the partial defence but I'd prefer a full defence. Scotland was oppressed as much as any of the English Empire and in many ways we got it worst. It just happened at a much earlier date which is why it perhaps seems less terrible to you. We were integrated into 'the United Kingdom', which made us complicit in the later oppression of other peoples and less and less oppressed the more we accepted our role as foot soldiers and colonialists. We got it first, and we have had it ever since, every time the British national anthem sings of hammering the Scots as the most minor yet significant example. Perhaps the highland clearances weren't as bad as the Irish were to suffer, but we were suffering it for hundreds of years before Ireland was subjecated. India now is free ( of England at least ). I don't think scots are better than the english, doubtless we'd have oppressed you if we could've. I think Scots have themselves to blame for allowing themselves to have been oppressed, I am not whinging but pointing out historical fact. The worst legacy of English oppression of Scotland is the Scottish tendency to blame England for everything. Its a cop out, but I can see why it developed that way.
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necropolist 1689 posts |
Sep 13, 2002, 15:14
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As semi-remembered from last weeks just a minute: If you look at a parliament where the speaker is Scottish, the head of the treasury is Scottish, the father of the house is Scottish, that’s the English parliament. Please note my use of tenses! Scotland IS not as oppressed as India WAS. There is no comparison between how Scotland is treated now (taxes ripped off, workers exploited, but only as they are in every capitalist country) and how India was treated at the height of British imperialism. The clearances were obviously appalling, and a brutal act of oppression. But they were also acts which the Scots themselves took part in! The division between high and lowland Scots was worse than between the Scots and the English in many ways for long periods of time. Now the Welsh, they really got it bad, and were utterly shat on.
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MonkeyBoy 1008 posts |
Oct 28, 2002, 09:45
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I see that Tommy Sheridan is saying that small business's have nothing to fear from The SSP only Big Business. What kind of oppurtunist, populist, reformist twaddle is this? Surely socialists should be in favour of abolishing both class, state and money. Small business good, big business bad! Sheeesh. Workers can be just as exploited and shat on in a small business (even worse in some cases). Some Tories would sing the praises of small business, including Mrs T. The Greens are keen on small is beautiful. The SSP nationalism is of highly dubious oppurtunist nature as it is there to just appeal to Scottish nationalists and has no hint of internationalism or the removing of countries and borders. A economically strong independent Scotland (with loads of nice small Scottish businesses)- sounds like the SNP to me. All sounds a bit NewOldLabour to me.
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YerArseInParsley 365 posts |
Oct 28, 2002, 10:56
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Seeing as I've never stayed at the Hotel Sheridan, I'm not going to defend him from appearing too Tory/Green/New Labour/Old Labour/SNP. At least the SSP have successfully differentiated themselves from the LibDems in your view. However, I will defend any form of Scottish nationalism. An independent Scotland, economically weak or strong, is the death of the British state and should be welcomed by anyone. It is the local struggle for self determination against a foreign rightwing population by an oppressed, and for the most part socialist, people. Tommy a wank, but I reckon your time would better be spent looking at the evil sheeple in the UK parliament before casting your criticisms up north. I ask you - where is the English left ? Dead in '84?
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MonkeyBoy 1008 posts |
Oct 28, 2002, 11:24
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Well some people see the SSP as the blueprint for a broad socialist party in the South. I wouldn't be too triumphant in your regionalism at the weakness of the left in Britain. If Tommy Boy ever did get in your gonna need strong workers movements else where to defend this North Sea Workers Paradise. If the SSP get in without substantial workers support in Britian, the best you will be looking at is a nightmare old labour government in Scotland which will incompotently run capitalism. If Tommy really does have a maximum (Revolutionary) program behind his minimum program (which is watery even compared to some Old Labour Manifestos) then without support else where - then Socialism in Scotland will degenerate with Tommy becoming a Kilt Wearing Joseph Stalin. Unfortunately Tommy boy represents much with what is wrong with the left throughout Europe - he has implications far wider than Scotland. Tommy probabily wants to leave small businesses alone so the tanning salons stay open - cant beat a Orange Skinned Leader of the workers to socialism.
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YerArseInParsley 365 posts |
Oct 28, 2002, 11:44
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We all know the oil is finished, not even the SNP claim we'll be better off independent now due to oil. And a 'nightmare' old Labour style government would be a wet dream compared to Blair/IDS. I agree the SSP will never cut it in England, because the majority of people there are so right wing. Independence is implied by devolution, an inevitability now, and it will probably be the SNP not the SSP that deliver it. I don't care who the mid-wife is, and I don't see independence as the end of Scotlands problems, but freedom has more responsibilities than subjectation.
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necropolist 1689 posts |
Oct 28, 2002, 14:30
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The English are so right-wing? The scots are predominant;ly socialist? Sorry, but bollocks. The Scots overwhelmingly voted tory pre-thatcher (the SNP at that point being known as the Tartan Tories). The devastation that woman wreaked on the scots have obviously completely screwed toryism up there for a while, but it will be back. If Scotland ever did get full independence, then, personally, I’ve little doubt the SNP would go back to their old ways, and be forthright defenders of Scottish capitalism. And remind me, who was it rioted against the Poll Tax (causing Tommy S to utter his loathsome scab comments mentioned above), and who was it who simply went for a wee stroll around the park? The SSP is seen as something of a role model of an organisation, not because of its platform (which is, as said, simply a bit of old school labour, rather than one which genuinely promotes socialism), but because it is a genuinely pluralistic, democratic far left organisation, within which other groupings (notably of course whatever it is Militant are calling themselves these days, and the SWP, and including various others) can operate as a ‘faction’. Which is obviously far better than everyone trying to rip each others heads off.
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