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PaulMakesMusic
951 posts

Re: hot to Trot
Sep 12, 2002, 11:53
I suspect not. Most rules are to do with the distribution of money. Even things that should be there for our benefit... See Back in the DHSS, Data protection act... As someone that believs that money is an abstract, I'm certainly in favour of ditching the current system for something much more straightforward.
PaulMakesMusic
951 posts

Virginia Bottomley is an anagram...
Sep 12, 2002, 11:55
...of "I'M AN EVIL TORY BIGOT"
YerArseInParsley
365 posts

Re: hot to Trot
Sep 12, 2002, 12:04
Rite on Bro'.

How about everybody just invents a new currency and we don't give any to the rich?

We could base it on the scottish pound note or monopoly money.
necropolist
necropolist
1689 posts

Re: Virginia Bottomley is an anagram...
Sep 12, 2002, 12:29
n of course, our Tone (PM) = I'm Tory Plan B
MonkeyBoy
1008 posts

Re: YerArse
Sep 12, 2002, 13:32
Necropolist did I understand you right - are you hanging around with The Weekly Worker lot. well I suppose it is a useful for sectarian gossip, I always have a butchers at it on the web. Amazing source of far left tittle tattle. Born Again ex-Stalinists!

The events of Kronstadt and such things as Trotsky replacing the soviets in factories with enforced party bureacrats just goes to show that Lenin and Trotsky were dictators. Lenin breaking up the constituent assembly (after failing to gain a majority of workers support), he also shut down none Bolshevik lead Soviets, he said that the Dictatorship of the Proletariat is equivalent to the dictatorship of one person (i.e. himself), and there is an amazing 'socialist' quote from him where he said that 1 in 10 shirkers should be shoot.

Bloody Authoritarian, one parrty dictators, I'll never consider myself a Leninist or Trotskyist again.

Anyway the point about SSP nationalism - Surely Socialism is international and concepts such as seperate countries should be alien to true socialism. Scottish Nationalism could divide English workers against Scottish workers. I think it is real Militant (ex) opportunism. Some may point to some Old Long dead dictator on what he wrote about the 'right of nations to self determination'. But come on Scotland may get a bad deal but they are hardly victims of real Imperialist oppression.

So the SSP sees the first step as an Independant Scotland, followed by an Old Labour Reformist style government. Or are they just lieing to the workers and really want a revolution. How are you gonna win the mass of workers to true socilaism with some piddling reformist program (and it is an old labour program, talking of taxation etc).

The true way to Socialism - Education, Education, Education!
necropolist
necropolist
1689 posts

Re: YerArse
Sep 12, 2002, 14:16
i would totally agree wuith your criticisms of the SSP programme. I've yet to be convoinced that they have really changed there tune that much, tho from what i gather they are acting in a far less sectarian manner than they used to. Which can only be a good thing.

As for uncle Leon, well, i think the man said many many good things, and proposed some very useful theories and strategies (against fascism, the united front especially). As a guide to building a trevolutionary organisation, well he left rather a lot to be desired there.

But, the destruction of the workplace soviets was down to Uncle Joe, shorely. That said he was perfectly willing to be as brutal as he thought necessary. But that was the nature of the times. When several million of your 'countrymen' have already dies in an imperialist war, and the threat from the old tsarist counter-revolutionaries was such that many millions more would have been killed had they been succesful, then that brutality was perfectly understandable, if not what i would call 'correct'.

Onto another wee bit....Scotland, no of course it's not opressed in the same way India was , or even in the same way Catholics in the six counties are, but its still shat upon. And it leaving the UK would be a blow to the 'might' of British power, leaving it rather weaker than it is now. And yeah, i still hold by the rights of nations to self-determination, nbot doing so can lead you into some very dodgy waters - not defending Afghanistan against the USSR, or Iraq v USA for example (not that I'm saying you're doing that, but it is a danger of that position - a 'fuck em, they're all as bad as each other so i wont take sides)

o aye, naah, not the weekly worker tho it is amusing to look at). workers power (slightly bigger, slightly less tankie)
MonkeyBoy
1008 posts

Re: YerArse
Sep 12, 2002, 14:32
Glad I got me wires crossed - Weekly Worker - still Stalinists, through and through.

Workers Power - are you gonna give 'em ago? Their to the left of the SWP aren't they? In my experience they were never as annoying as the Soggies, SWP, Militant etc. Still very much orthodox Trotsyits though.

I agree the SSP is not as sectarian as the Far left used to be, but how much of this is due to the decimation of the left rather than a true changing of ways.

Some would like to see the SA become like the SSP, but the whole SA can seem like the far left still trying to form committies.

I take it you are backing Foot for Mayor Hackney - hopefully he can pull off a real shock for New Labour and the establishment.
necropolist
necropolist
1689 posts

Foot Ahead!!
Sep 12, 2002, 14:51
or something.

gotta do it, just for the sheer hell of shitting them up - and apparently he is doing. which is just bloody great.

WP left of SW? ummm, well I suppose they would both agree (SW say WP are ultra-left, WP say SW are centrists - causing some great argies with me gf), tho i think they are quite right-wing in effect with some of their soft stalinism. Quite like them because they are (the ones i know) good peeps, serious about fighting, and not completely sectarian or opportunist. Oh, and nor completely and utterly mad as well.. Which is nice
MonkeyBoy
1008 posts

Worker's Bombs!
Sep 12, 2002, 15:10
Wasn't that a WP idea, that workers states should have nuclear weapons to defend themselves. Made a change from Tanks I suppose. The WP people I used to know (years back) all seemed nice in a speccie kind of a way (am I allowed to say that - bit un PC I know).

The Lines between Stalinism and Trotskyism often blur. Despite the ideoligical differences, organisational they had many similarities. Just look at the Stalinist organisational, bureucratic, leaderships of many a Trotsyist Sect - like Militant/SP for example. Why did Militant call themseleves The Socialist Party - surely the pre-Leninist SPGB has the right to the name. Whatever people may think of the SPGB, they have been called that since 1904.

I think any Heads in the London area should help the Paul Foot for Mayor campaign out and do everything to shit the establishment up - though don't really take everything those SWPers say as fact, while helping out.
necropolist
necropolist
1689 posts

SPGB
Sep 12, 2002, 15:27
oooh, not sure about that. i never actually managed to track down any organisation that did go for the Workers Bomb, even tho 'everyone' knew that there was one. A trot urban myth perhaps? I'll check it out.

SPGB, well, yeah they have a 'right' to that name in a sense i suppose, but they've had it for 98 years, as you say, and done sweet fuck all with it in all that time. Not to mention the fact that they are as bonkers as a bonkermans bonk!
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