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U-Know! Forum » The U.S position on 'emancipating' Guantanamo Bay detainess |
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sanshee 633 posts |
Edited Sep 16, 2009, 21:07
Sep 16, 2009, 21:05
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Just heard a fascinating talk on PM today, where The 'U.S Special Envoy to Guantanamo Bay', Daniel Fried, stated that sure, the Obama admin wants to see the closure as proposed and promised. He's even more OK to ask as many European countries, especially those who condemned GITMO, to take in their share. He bargains along the lines of, 'you thought it was wrong, now here's your chance to help us put it right'. However, he reminded us all that Congress does not allow for detainess to ever be released anywhere in the US, something he's sort of OK with, or at least reluctant to criticise. He does not see anything amiss here at all, only that the morally, the onus is on 'the other lot', who ever they may be. To be found here. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qskw PROGRAMME DATE 16 Sept :-/ x
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sanshee 633 posts |
Edited Sep 17, 2009, 14:18
Sep 17, 2009, 14:18
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And in print. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8260081.stm **Mr Fried's tough job has not been helped by the decision of Congress to block the transfer of any cleared detainees from Guantanamo to the US mainland. He says he will not criticise Congress, but told me: "It is fair to say, as just an objective statement, that the US could resettle more detainees [worldwide], had we been willing to take in some."** x x
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Ziggypop 219 posts |
Edited Sep 18, 2009, 02:01
Sep 18, 2009, 01:41
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Edit to keep the peace...
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sanshee 633 posts |
Edited Sep 20, 2009, 15:04
Sep 20, 2009, 15:01
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Quite shocking though eh? I remember Obama declaring he'd close the place down 'fore the removal vans even had all his stuff delivered. Everyone cheered, coz yes, it did sound rather needed. Now these poor INNOCENT people are left like the ultimate in world refugees. Accused, found not to be guilty, infact not even tried, still a burden to be dumped wherever. How dare they. Got to be a change in direction here. x
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dodge one 1242 posts |
Sep 20, 2009, 16:29
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Could you please post a Link that substantiates the remaining 226 detainees at Gauntanemo are "Innocent"? {as you declare} If i could be persuaded that these remaining detainees are "Innocent", i will personally flood my state congressman and senators e-mail with my personal protests. I am reasonably sure that Mr. Obama knows far more regarding each detainees reason for being detained as a president than he did as a candidate. Perhaps there is a reason that he has hedged on this particular campaign platform. Also if you are certain that these detainees are innocent, Here is the White House E-mail address to lodge your concern in a venue that is sure to be more direct. {one would hope} http://www.whitehouse.gov/
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sanshee 633 posts |
Edited Sep 20, 2009, 20:00
Sep 20, 2009, 19:25
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dodge one wrote: I am reasonably sure that Mr. Obama knows far more regarding each detainees reason for being detained as a president than he did as a candidate. Perhaps there is a reason that he has hedged on this particular campaign platform. Also if you are certain that these detainees are innocent, Here is the White House E-mail address to lodge your concern in a venue that is sure to be more direct. {one would hope} http://www.whitehouse.gov/ I say 'innocent' as in 'until proven guilty', which is something I believe to be right and proper. What's wrong with saying that here? The right thing of course, to end the whole episode properly, would be if proper hearings were now held, don't you think? It's supposed to be happening, but to a lightning speed deadline. I mean this Fried guy has only been in his job for a few months, it all just seems a bit 'rushed' to me. And if Obama does know that these people are ALL extremely dangerous, or even a bit, as you suggest, then is it right to ask other countries to take such enormous risks as to take them in? Oh, and remember it was stated that any 'cleared' (therefore 'innocent') detainees are not to be settled in the US mainland' Said enogh now on this, but if I've offended you, which I feel I have, wasn't meant. Just thought this deserved a bit of an airing, but each to their own. x
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dodge one 1242 posts |
Sep 20, 2009, 21:10
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sanshee wrote: dodge one wrote: I am reasonably sure that Mr. Obama knows far more regarding each detainees reason for being detained as a president than he did as a candidate. Perhaps there is a reason that he has hedged on this particular campaign platform. Also if you are certain that these detainees are innocent, Here is the White House E-mail address to lodge your concern in a venue that is sure to be more direct. {one would hope} http://www.whitehouse.gov/ I say 'innocent' as in 'until proven guilty', which is something I believe to be right and proper. What's wrong with saying that here? Not a thing wrong with "saying that here". I don't feel that i've intimated that at all. As far as guilt or innocence is concerned, since 2001, of the approximately 750 captured {classified as} enemy combatants, this # has been whittled down to a current 226 detainees. The rest have been freed to return to, from as many as 35 different countrys of origin that they themselves claim. Or to countrys willing to have them. Some detainees countrys of origin will NOT have them back as is the case with the Uighgers{Chinese ethnic muslims}. What has been the process to determine enemy combatant status? Well it's become quite clear that the 'Coalition', post 911 did in fact use methods of a nefarious nature to determine this. Although i have to say that if i were an enemy combatant, i would gladly take my chances as a POW under the aegis of NATO rather than a Russian,Chinese,Taliban,Al-queda, etc....etc.....ad infinitum capturee. War is always a triage situation, even a peacetime military is a clusterfuck....i would know after 4 years service. I for one would very much like to know of a Tribunal situation that could have waded through a crowd of dedicated jihadist's more effectively. History only shows such a thing as 'after the fact' such as post WW2, at the Nuremberg trials. Also 1 other thing bears noting, the American military has been very aggressive in prosecuting it's own, in the events of war crimes. As regards detainees having been freed, there are notable cases of repatriated capturees returning immediately to Al-Queda leadership positions. The right thing of course, to end the whole episode properly, would be if proper hearings were now held, don't you think? It's supposed to be happening, but to a lightning speed deadline. What do you suggest? Mr. Obama has got a serious platefull at the moment. We are currently at about 12-13 TRILLION dollars in debt over on this side. And it IS nessasary to stand a vangaurd against Jihadists and terror cells. We {in my state of N.Y.} have just uncovered more Alqueda supporters. In fact, i fear {and so should you} that our next act of terrorism will come from with-in. Even-so.....'Secret Leader' still gives orders from caves in Afghanistan and Pakistan. It's one thing to hope for a nice tidy wrap up of this 'Thing'.....but how? I mean this Fried guy has only been in his job for a few months, it all just seems a bit 'rushed' to me. Not sure about the "rushed" outlook. Whats wrong with any of the detainees who are 'eligible' for release to just return to there country's of origin? Is that perhaps the problem? Those country's do not want these individuals back? And if Obama does know that these people are ALL extremely dangerous, or even a bit, as you suggest, then is it right to ask other countries to take such enormous risks as to take them in? Again, let those individuals who eligible for release......GO HOME. Oh, and remember it was stated that any 'cleared' (therefore 'innocent') detainees are not to be settled in the US mainland' Well speaking for the U.S., during the 1990's through 2007 the U.S. accepted over 100,000 iraqi born citizens for immigration. During the soviet occupation of Afghanistan, the U.S. took in upwards of 75,000 Afghani refugees. I think that were doing what we can. As far as Jihadists go? No thanks. Like i said......they can GO HOME. Said enogh now on this, but if I've offended you, which I feel I have, wasn't meant. Just thought this deserved a bit of an airing, but each to their own. I never once felt "offended". I just thought i'd weigh in with my own thoughts. If you feel that you have said enough....i respect that. Regards.
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sanshee 633 posts |
Edited Sep 20, 2009, 22:14
Sep 20, 2009, 22:12
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Sorry, but got to come back on... **As far as Jihadists go? No thanks. Like i said......they can GO HOME.** Most certainly. Who wants em. Not me. Neither should the U.S. Except you seem to be defending the actions of your government without showing interest in what they are actually saying. Fried concedes that hardly any of the inmates in that hellhole fit that Jihadi description. Anyways, Guantanamo seems 'so last year or something'. Just glad I ain't one of the poor fuckers wrongly held all this time (as yer man in govt acknowledges is the case there many times over). How easy to 'return home' when mud sticks so? x
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dodge one 1242 posts |
Sep 20, 2009, 22:23
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Shanshee.......i'll be more than happy to continue this conversation based on 'INDIVIDUAL' merits. Which of the current detainee's are a threat? And which individuals should be released immediately? My guess is that you will have as much luck sussing that out as me. I never support injustice in any manner,shape or form. Like i said.....let em' GO HOME. Thats my solution. I would even be GLAD to pay out of my own pocket, PERSONALLY, an airline ticket to where-ever any 1 of em' wants to go.
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grufty jim 1770 posts |
Sep 23, 2009, 17:03
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dodge one wrote: Shanshee.......i'll be more than happy to continue this conversation based on 'INDIVIDUAL' merits. Which of the current detainee's are a threat? And which individuals should be released immediately? My guess is that you will have as much luck sussing that out as me. Isn't that what the legal system is for? Y'know, trials? The fact that seven years have passed without those men getting to trial -- seven years in which, presumably, a fair amount of resources got spent trying to gather evidence -- suggests that none of them can be shown to be a threat. dodge one wrote: I never support injustice in any manner, shape or form. Like i said.....let em' GO HOME. Thats my solution. Keeping people imprisoned without trial for seven years is clearly unjust. Mistreating them, in some cases torturing them, is also clearly unjust. Knowingly returning them "home" to countries where they are likely to suffer further mistreatment, even murdered, at the hands of the local government is -- I would argue -- also unjust. The reckless and tyrannical policy of extraordinary rendition employed by the United States created this problem. And it is a problem. There are hundreds of men for whom there is no actual evidence of having done anything wrong (otherwise trials would have taken place, I think we can agree). They have been isolated, sometimes brutalised, for a period of many years. It seems likely to me that any anti-American sentiment they possessed will have been greatly amplified by their experience. Releasing them, therefore, presents problems. Firstly, for justice to be served, the people who falsely imprisoned them owe them some kind of attempt at mitigation. America needs to make it up to these people somehow. Secondly, they obviously can't be resettled in America itself (more for their own safety than anything else). Thirdly, returning to Afghanistan or Iraq is probably not an option for many of them given the likely reception they'll receive. Furthermore, a proportion of them may well have dedicated themselves to revenge if / when they are released. Once again -- just as with the mujahidin in Afghanistan in the 70s and 80s -- the United States may well be responsible for directly creating the next wave of anti-American terrorists. I don't know exactly what's to be done about this, but given that Islamist terrorism and US militarism affect the entire world in a variety of ways (not just America and Afghanistan), this should be seen as a global problem. One that we all should strive to solve, though one the US should clearly pay for.
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