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U-Know! Forum » Cope on Mao |
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phallus dei 137 posts |
Edited Sep 04, 2009, 17:04
Sep 04, 2009, 17:00
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Cope’s wide off the mark in endorsing Mao: The Unknown Story. The book might be an entertaining read, but as scholarship, it’s worthless. Many of the author's sources are unverifiable, and some of the people she’s interviewed have latter complained that she took what they said out of context. She also has a consistent tendency, when presented with conflicting bits of information, to take the piece most damming to Mao. For those actually interested in the topic, I would recommend Mobo Gao’s The Battle for China’s Past, recently published by Pluto Press. I also take strong issue with Cope’s comment, “does she think that we Westerners are as brainwashed as the fucking commies? We’re not!” This is either incredibly elitist or incredibly naïve. I invite anyone who thinks the average Westerner isn’t brainwashed by consumerism and/or religion to visit my country, America.
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bauheed 437 posts |
Sep 05, 2009, 10:09
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thanks for this Phallus. After reading the Drudion this month I was thinking to pick up a copy of that book on Mao, which I have heard good things abou in the past. If and when I do finally get around to it, i'll be suitably sceptical, and keep a look out for the other tome that you mention too. Cheers.
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IanB 4702 posts |
Edited Sep 05, 2009, 11:26
Sep 05, 2009, 11:20
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bauheed wrote: thanks for this Phallus. After reading the Drudion this month I was thinking to pick up a copy of that book on Mao, which I have heard good things abou in the past. If and when I do finally get around to it, i'll be suitably sceptical, and keep a look out for the other tome that you mention too. Cheers. An old teacher of mine let slip the idea that good history books should be read and enjoyed as if they were well researched novels. I think he meant it as a compliment to the standard of history writing in English, not a comment on the subjective nature of the genre but I took the point. There are exceptions of course but every piece of writing is going to be nuts deep in the political bias of the author. There are some events (English Civil War is an excellent example) about which I have been reading for something like 30 years and still I feel like only have a shadowy understanding of that time and the motivations of the varous factions. And that is a relatively well documented set of events that occurred in a restricted period of time with a small cast of characters whose language we share and that more or less took place all in one country. As for the monsters of recent history the numbers will tell you most of what you need to know. It's like baseball stats, some people are just head and shoulders above the the rest. World class, hall of fame genocide is hard to ignore. Sadists and slavers do love to catalogue their work. The old left and far right spend far too much time glossing and recontextualising the sins of their dead heroes. I've given up trying to follow Cope's drift on social and politcal issues. I like the scepticism and the balls-out passion of the utopian but he's a much better read on old rock and old rocks than political theory.
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Popel Vooje 4484 posts |
Sep 05, 2009, 12:47
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phallus dei wrote: I also take strong issue with Cope’s comment, “does she think that we Westerners are as brainwashed as the fucking commies? We’re not!” This is either incredibly elitist or incredibly naïve. I invite anyone who thinks the average Westerner isn’t brainwashed by consumerism and/or religion to visit my country, America. I can't comment on the book you're discussing as I haven't read it. As far as your last statement is concerned, I agree that "brainwashed" is the wrong term to use - "oppressed" would be more accurate - but having visited both Cuba under Fidel Castro and Rumania under Nicolae Caeusescu I'm in no doubt that the quality of life under most communist dictatorships is many, many thousands of times worse than it is in the west in just about every respect. Even Vietnam - a beautiful country with a relatively relaxed, albeit still nominally communist, regime - has human rights issues which are at least as bad as the USA's (even accounting for Gunatanamo Bay). I can't point out specific examples at the moment as I'm on a half hour teabreak which is due to end in five minutes, but I can dig some out later on if anyone's interested.
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dave clarkson 2549 posts |
Edited Sep 05, 2009, 14:53
Sep 05, 2009, 14:50
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" I invite anyone who thinks the average Westerner isn’t brainwashed by consumerism and/or religion to visit my country, America." That's an incredibly elitist thing to say too! 8)
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phallus dei 137 posts |
Sep 05, 2009, 16:27
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Yeah, but at least I am trashing my own country and culture, not another's. I do think that someone within their culture has much more of a right to criticize that culture than someone outside. Do you not agree?
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dave clarkson 2549 posts |
Edited Sep 05, 2009, 18:08
Sep 05, 2009, 18:00
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....that's your 'choice' and you do realise that you 'have the freedom' to trash your own culture on a left field public messageboard? Would you have spoke out in the same manner if you lived in a culture under Mr Mao? 8)
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Squid Tempest 6704 posts |
Sep 05, 2009, 23:55
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I think you're missing the point Dave. I don't think that he's saying that either culture is "better", just that Americans are brainwashed by consumerism, another but just as insidious form of brainwashing to that suffered living under a dictatorship or extreme form of government.
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giantleech 37 posts |
Edited Sep 06, 2009, 01:16
Sep 06, 2009, 01:14
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phallus dei wrote: I invite anyone who thinks the average Westerner isn’t brainwashed by consumerism and/or religion to visit my country, America. I invite anyone to visit my country, America (the 'United States of' part this hemispheres northern continent), too. After all, it is the greatest country on Earth (despite the domestic minority cadre of liberal ingrate whiners who take all of their freedoms and opportunities here for granted.) Equating occasional proximity to product advertisments (ie: "consumerism") in the West as "brainwashing" in comparison with the propaganda, forced indoctrination and re-education of political prisoners in various dictatorships and pseudo-democracies around the globe is simply ludicrous (and typical of the whining hyperbole of the left in general.)
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dave clarkson 2549 posts |
Edited Sep 06, 2009, 02:11
Sep 06, 2009, 01:19
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Think you've misinterpreted the thread here..''the clues are in the speech marks''.. . No, non, nein, I'm certainly not missing any point - don't think any of us was saying that Squid. I was saying that he has the ''''''freedom''''' to express himself under his political environment that he wouldn't under a dictatorship. Do you want to keep to the point and challenge that theory? 8)
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