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Stupid old fart
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grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Edited Feb 09, 2008, 03:16
Re: Stupid old fart
Feb 09, 2008, 03:13
shanshee_allures wrote:
But part of my worry is, won't any court concerned with Shariah law, exclude women a great deal? If you have any female friends or relations who you care about, hopefully you feel at least a twinge at that one too.

Look, I have a huge problem with Islam, as I do with any institutionalised religion. But Islam is indeed particularly problematic with respect to equality issues (whether for women, or homosexuals). That's not to say that Christianity doesn't also have that built in. It does. But christianity has been secularised in most places (at least to a degree) and christian cultures tend (there are exceptions, as we all know) to place established liberal principles such as sexual equality ahead of religious dogma. At least that's the theory.

Islam, on the other hand, hasn't really been secularised in that way. Now, I tend to think that's purely historical. Christianity as a cultural force has existed for 800 years longer than Islam. Judaism has existed for a further thousand. These cultures have had far more time in which to evolve and modern cultural evolution appears to move towards secularism in general. We cannot blame Islam for its relative youth, no more than we can blame America for its relative youth, in comparison to European culture.

However, that does not (as I'm sure we agree) condone behaviour that is clearly injust and destructive to the wider world, whether that's America's military adventures or Islam's inequalities (and there's plenty of other examples. Don't get defensive Americans, I'm just citing two topical ones).

So the treatment of women (and homosexuals) in Islamic cultures is rightfully to be criticised and we should never allow such treatment to be imported by Muslim communities in secular societies. Clearly such inequality does exist in many British (and German, French, etc.) Muslim communities, and we should not tolerate it. To suggest otherwise (as is often spuriously done in the name of 'political correctness') is a clear betrayal of our own principles of equality.

Of course, a Muslim may well point out that we really should get our own house in order first before lecturing them (the treatment of women by Western culture is far from perfect, and we were still imprisoning homosexuals until fairly recently... certainly within the lifetimes of some of the people on this board).

Nonetheless (and that's a fair point in my view), the subservient role expected of women in many (if not most) strands of Islam is an offence to the collective values of our own society and needs to be eliminated (with as much sensitivity as is possible for Muslim communities, but done all the same).

And here we return to the Archbishop and his thoughts on Sharia. I can assure you, I'm not a fan of "men of the cloth", but I do think you do Williams a little injustice. I do think he's a very thoughtful man who brings a refreshing intellectualism to public life that just can't be found in politics or the media these days. I'd much prefer he wasn't a christian spokesman, but I'm actually happy that he's a part of public life as his voice is wiser than most we hear.

No problem if we disagree on the man, as I think we're in basic agreement on the issues.

But to return to your earlier point, cited above, I honestly believe Williams' views are nuanced enough to address your concern (and mine, and any right-thinking person).

I mean, it's safe to say that if a Sharia court "excluded" the rights, or voices, of women it would be breaking existing British equal-opportunity laws. So by Williams' own definition (that a religious court must adhere first to local laws), such a court would not be allowed.

Again, please don't take this as advocacy for Sharia, or for Islam. Nothing could be further from the truth (I worked in Saudi Arabia for a short while and I'd even choose the American Midwest above that totalitarian nightmare!) But I do think that Williams is making a valid point.

I mean, shanshee, you object to women being treated unequally to men under the law, right? As well you should. And if you lived in a place where such inequality was rampant, you would almost certainly feel angry, alienated and mistreated, right? Again, as well you should. So do you not see the problem with a nation that allows Jewish courts -- so long as they are in accordance with local laws -- but does not grant the same rights to Muslims (again, so long as they follow the same rules)?


(And now to bed...)
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