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A tax on the careful?
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AgentOrange
AgentOrange
221 posts

A tax on the careful?
Feb 21, 2002, 13:04
This is a puzzling debate that I cannot thrash out within my own mind. Essentially I think I am a socialist, I beleive that everyone should have equal access to healthcare and that this should be paid for by wealth-related tax.

As I am now a taxpayer and someone fairly mindful of my own health, I begin to wonder about the fairness of subsidising other's carelessness. When my asthma became very bad over 10 years ago, I stopped smoking and over the last few years I have made huge efforts in taking up sport to increase my fitness so that now my need for medication has been minimised. Now I am able to get on with my life, I am rarely ill. earn a good wage and am happy to pay tax on that.

A small niggly part of me tends to feel a little resentment when I sit on trains next to people damaging their hearing (and my nerves) with personal sterios, will my taxes support their treatment? When I hear of people using their cars to drive a 5 minute walk, or know that many people pay no attention to their diet I wonder if I will be paying for their pacemakers in the future?

I know this is a really complex issue. I don't believe that people who do dangerous sports should have to buy health insurance because I think the health benefits to the individual must outweigh the risk of injury. This argument could be extended to smoking - perhaps the individual suffers less from stress because they are able to relax more?

Has the welfare state made us more complacent? Should I feel resentment? Whats your opinion?
FourWinds
FourWinds
10943 posts

Re: A tax on the careful?
Feb 21, 2002, 13:39
WOW! A burning question indeed.

My personal slant is that I am very fortunate to have the job I do and the salary that goes with it. Not too long ago I was in a very different situation indeed. I still remember those times and would hate to think of what life would have been like without the welfare state. My wife was on over £300 worth of drugs a week in the six months before she died. If through my good fortune I can help save somebody through my taxes then I'm happy with that.

There are much more worrying things that your taxes pay for !!

In Ireland everything healthwise is private. It costs £20 (sterling) just to see the doctor! The health system here has always been good, but even now there are complaints about it slipping to "British levels" by adopting British methods. UK health care is famously shitty. I used to resent paying for something that didn't serve and innevitably let me and my family down when we needed it most.

The taxes that pay for rockets and bombs are the bits you should be worrying about. You may be in a good job now, but who can guarentee that that will be the case in two years time? What if you need health care then .... who will be paying for that?

Think of it as an insurance policy for yourself. Think of it as giving to people who are (possibly through no fault of their own) in a worse financial position than youself.

Rant at the pharmacutical companies for hiking drug prices. Rant at the stupid ability to patent a life saving drug and with hold it from someone who is dying and has no money.

I agree about people doing harm to themselves, but I smoke and so fall into that catagory. Perhaps personal stereos should come with a health warning.

I can not condone a system that starts to list ailments that are excluded from the state healthcare system. Who drws up the list? What are the criteria?

Can you blame an illiterate man because he can read the health warning on a packet of cigarettes?

Be at peace with yourself and hope you never need to cash in on the insurance policy you are made to pay into (either the health care or the guns).

Ride On!!
grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Re: A tax on the careful?
Feb 21, 2002, 15:03
First point: taxation on cigarettes and alcohol exceeds the amount of money spent on treating smoking and drinking related illnesses. So drinkers and smokers are technically subsidising the rest (let's get that one in perspective). That the cash may not all be going to the NHS ain't the fault of those that pay it.

But ignore that completely, as actually it's irrelevant - there's plenty of dangerous things - that don't pay for their own treatment through taxation - that people do voluntarily. Should people be treated for injuries received whilst doing dangerous sports? i choose not to go snowboarding - should my taxes have to pay for someone who broke their leg doing it? And there's obviously plenty more examples - from extreme sports to suicide-attempts...

Or we could go the way of America and many other places and make it so that only the rich can afford to hurt themselves. i guess i just believe that a society that can afford trident submarines can damn well afford to provide basic health care for anyone who needs it - regardless of how they found themselves with such need.

When the question becomes "do we treat smokers for cancer or pay for education?" then we have a dilemma, and we can have this debate again... as long as the question is "do we treat smokers for cancer or fund our nuclear arsenal / bomb afghanistan / keep john prescott in new jaguars / build more unecessary bypasses / etc / etc?"... well, i'm always gonna come down on the side of the sick people there (and i pay plenty of taxes, hardly ever drink and don't do tobacco).
AgentOrange
AgentOrange
221 posts

Re: A tax on the careful?
Feb 21, 2002, 15:23
You're both right, its a perspective thing. You make me feel better because I realise that the money involved is quite trivial. Indeed I see it as an insurance policy, and probably a good bargain at that. I NEVER want to see the health service privatised, that people have to pay for eyetests and dentistry is sickening enough. I aint getting at the poorly educated or financed (the issues here are very complex and really a very separate issue) and I know Im lucky in both these respects (I aint kidding - I REALLY feel very lucky). As I wrote my rant, I began to come to the conclusion that my frustration was with a minority that I feel have the knowledge and ability to take preventative and curative action yet dont. Am I right in feeling that the welfare state has removed personal resposibility, or have people always done things that they know is bad for them/society and avoided things they know is good? In my mind there is some contradiction here. The welfare state is about everyone contributing what they can for the good of society as a whole (hmm, what do I do?) so if I have the knowledge and ability should I not be helping society by looking after myself? Who in the UK doesn't know that walking is better for most people in so many ways than driving? How many people still drive a reasonable walking distance? Am I just too mean?

Grufty - I raised smoking with a positive note, I know what they say about taxes (can you tell me how they worked that out?) - I was not sniping at smokers.

Does anyone know how the wider tax-paying population views this issue? Both your answers should be used as education in the case that, as I suspect, there may be some great resistance the to the raising of taxes 'to pay for the NHS' (they say).
FourWinds
FourWinds
10943 posts

Re: A tax on the careful?
Feb 21, 2002, 15:46
If there was a referendum tomorrow worded:

Do we buy another trident submarine or 4 hospitals?

What would the vote be?

As I mentioned the health care here is paid for by the individual, but taxes are still way higher than in the UK. The tax situation is mad in Britain. People expect tax cut after tax cut and then complain when the country goes to the wall. Whos fault is it? The politicians or the people that voted them in on the promise of lower taxes?

What is needed is more realistic salaries, lower profits and high taxes(very high for high earners to disuade ludicrously high salaries). That is the only way to provide for a welfare state. Even better just tax the shit out of the private sector companies.
spirit
182 posts

Re: A tax on the careful?
Feb 21, 2002, 15:55
my tuppenceworth

WOuld be happy to pay more tax. (Actually there are one or two small caveats like but not if you're going to spend it on weapons)

As one of those smokers who are keeping the NHS afloat I probably have a vested interest in saying that we shouldn't make NHS treatment decisions on the basis of someone's lifestyle -

I believe this ends in very dodgy territory eg in extremis you could get the don't treat people with AIDS after all they brought it on themselves - from the christian right

So I say treat 'em all. I don't smoke in order to ensure I get back at least what I've paid in taxes over the years when I get some terminal illness. I smoke cos I'm too stupid to give up and I can't quite convince myself it'll happen to me (despite being an actuary who really should know better)

I agree with FourWinds that part (a lot) of the problem with funding is overgreedy pharmaceutical companies pricing drugs at ridiculous levels. This is a particularly repellent practice especially in relation to 3rd world countries.

Same with benefits in general there may be some people who take the piss and try and screw the system (& in my experience seems to take more effort than working) but that doesn't mean we should throw the baby out with the bath water.

Pay the taxes and be glad you can afford to.

xx spirit
spirit
182 posts

Re: A tax on the careful?
Feb 21, 2002, 15:59
Hadn't read this when I posted my other message - please don't take the 'be glad you can afford to' bit the wrong way.

Suspect you probably have a bias in your sampling from this website I can supply numerous names of people with completely opposite views to mine on the subject - some of whom appear to be reasonable human beings. But you wouldn't find 'em hanging round here.

xx spirit
FourWinds
FourWinds
10943 posts

Re: A tax on the careful?
Feb 21, 2002, 16:18
The chem companies make me wanna scream!

AAAAaaaaaaaaarrgggghhhh!!!

There I've done it! They put so much pressure on gov'ts to not allow canabis based drugs or not to encourage research into drugs from plants it makes me sick. And why? Because in the States you can not patent a drug made from natural materials!

If someone comes up with a plant based cure-all wonder drug they're all fucked.

Let's start searching!
spirit
182 posts

Re: A tax on the careful?
Feb 21, 2002, 16:25
Let me get this straight ...

you can't patent medicines based on plants yet you can patent plants (like rice) just so you can really screw the 3rd world ...

ace

xx spirit
AgentOrange
AgentOrange
221 posts

Re: A tax on the careful?
Feb 22, 2002, 09:43
Dats what its all about. The US would not allow the cost of AIDS drugs to be reduced so that the 3rd world could benefit, yet they got anti-anthrax vaccines cheap. There was some retoric about reducing the cost of AIDS drugs but its all gone quiet again. Funny.

Grrr.
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