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IronMan
IronMan
601 posts

Re: beards
Jan 21, 2002, 15:55
"I don't think there are many people (forces or otherwise) who take pleasure in the torture and belittling of other people. Question the powers at be sure, but how dare you insult the troop of USAM like that. "

Funny you should say that, 'cause the lad sat right next to me was in the army for 10 years. He says it was wall-to-wall bullying, belittlement, mind-games etc. And that's to their fellow british soldiers, not to mention the trips in to town to pick fights with the locals! How many lads leave the army alcoholic or smackheads?? I'm sure the USAM are no different, especially considering the British Army is notorious for it's discipline. The US army hasn't exactly got a great track record when it comes to brutality. Imagine what people could do to someone they barely regarded as human.
A friend's brother served in the war with Iraq, and I've seen his grinning photos as he & colleagues hold aloft severed Iraqi heads. They collected them like trophies, for fuck sake.
Half of the army training programme is about dehumanising the enemy, surely.
Don't take pleasure!
Please!
grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Re: Watch that Pariah, it'll be you next
Jan 21, 2002, 16:01
Let me reiterate a point i made previously, and which is still being resolutely ignored by defenders of the current US treatment of those in Cuba.

Either these prisoners are POWs (which i tend to consider them) in which case it is simply ILLEGAL to treat them in any manner which contravenes the Geneva Convention (to which the US is a signatory)...

Or they are "terrorist suspects" in which case it is ILLEGAL to deny them the same rights as any other suspected criminal (however dreadful the crime of which they are accused).

Donald Rumsfeld does not have the legal authority to simply invent another category ("unlawful combatants"). No such thing exists under international law.

Now, there has been no evidence presented to any court connecting any of those prisoners with the events of September 11th. This makes them POWs - plain and simple. At least until a time such evidence is presented - when they become "terrorist suspects".

CraigR, Joe Chip and any others who feel that the treatment of those prisoners is "morally" justified are entitled to that opinion. However, it is NOT legally justified. If you feel it is fine for the US to simply ignore international law - and yet insist upon its enforcement for any other nation or group - then your argument is clearly irrational and/or incoherent.

The other possibility is that you believe it is justifiable for ANY nation or group to break international law if they feel the situation requires it. That would be a rational and coherent stance - just one that i personally find morally reprehensible... i don't think our planet is made a better place by rampant vigilanteeism by those with the biggest guns.
CraigR
CraigR
479 posts

Re: beards
Jan 21, 2002, 19:57
You know some fucking idiots then. I evidently don't.
IronMan
IronMan
601 posts

Bad boys
Jan 21, 2002, 21:01
Did I say that the guy sat next to me was responsible? I was only repeating what I'd been told. As it happens he's okay, he just thinks that a lot of squaddies are evil little fuckers!
As for the other guy he really was a cunt of the highest order, as were his miserable little friends! Like I say he was my mates brother, they aren't on speaking terms these days because he used to beat the shit out of him when he was on leave. Nice bloke.
Doesn't answer my question though - why do people go into the army?
RiotGibbon
1527 posts

Re: beards
Jan 22, 2002, 09:11
yeah, my brother was in the army (notice the past tense --- one well-aimed mortar bomb, one vaporised mate and the army gets rid of 5 traumatised blokes, all trained to kill)

anyway, our kid is full of stories like that. That's what being a soldier is all about - dehumanising the enemy (eg gooks, krauts, ragheads, I hear binmen is the latest) so you can get on and kill them

I had the dubious privilige of working in a prison a few years ago - I'm not an expert on penal policy, but that really doesn't seem a sustainable regime to me. Looks like the US have got themselves a few random geezers from Afghanistan locked up and are abusing them in every way until either they get some info or decide what to do with them

If mistakes like the Stephen Dowling case last week (and the Guildford Four, Birmingham 6 etc etc) can happen in a relatively measured and calm situation, just imagine what might happen now ...

or is it impossible. Or do normal legal rights of representation not apply (apparently not, because they're "unlawful combatants", whatever that means) because they are Muslims found in Afghanistan?

CraigR - release those in your care. We know you've got the key - do the right thing when no-one is looking ...

heh

RG
spirit
182 posts

Re: Watch that Pariah, it'll be you next
Jan 22, 2002, 09:29
from my previous on this thread you'll know I agree with what you're saying grufty but I had heard that the Americans had not ratified latest version of Geneva convention - not sure whether this binds them to just the last version they did sign or not (or whether I've been misinformed) . Also that Afghanistan is not a signatory.

I do not think this excuses them in any way just that the legal position may not be that clearly defined - attempts to muddy waters further by making up new names for POW is presumably all part of the same 'gameplan'.
CraigR
CraigR
479 posts

Re: Bad boys
Jan 22, 2002, 10:51
Why do people do aything? If you'd like me to say, because the all want to kill peolple - there you go I have. But thats bullshit. I can only tell you why the people I know went in, and thats none of your business.

Why do you do what you? I suggest your answer will be the same as SOME soldiers will give you as to why they went in the army.
CraigR
CraigR
479 posts

Re: beards
Jan 22, 2002, 10:54
................not sure what you mean RG??!!

I am merely making a point that we shouldn't swallow what w read/see WHATEVER the source, and we shouldn't formulte opinions on a military force made up of thousands of people and personalities.
CraigR
CraigR
479 posts

Re: Hail to the Defenders of Civilization!
Jan 22, 2002, 10:56
Quoted in a paper - therefore FACT??

Bollocks.
RiotGibbon
1527 posts

Re: beards
Jan 22, 2002, 11:52
"not sure what you mean RG??!!"


splendid - can't have too much ambiguity

anyway, I don't think anyone's pointing the finger at any particular person (except Bush and Rumsfield) for being individually inhumane, it's more the the worry that the US seem to have thrown away the legal rulebook and are making it up as they go along - if any other country did that to a US soldier, they'd go mental

anyway, the US army have got guns and stuff - they can handle a few whining longhairs - they're not the one's who's rights need defending at the moment ...

RG
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