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morfe 2992 posts |
Sep 20, 2003, 18:49
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What I'm skeptical of is rants about "capitalism does this" and "capitalism does that." I (for one) rant like fuck about capitalism. I presume you are saying that you are either skeptical about my motives, or my validity (for the rant), it would make no sense to be skeptical of the existence of my rant. There is a whole problem here (as discussed) with labelling, and the fact that 'capitalism' ISN'T (for example) defined by industrialization, neither is it defined by greed, neither is it defined by any one thing ..in the DICTIONARY. And in an ideal world we would all trade and benefit, and life would be regulated by 'evolution' and hunk-dory. Of course (overlooking the fact that those that do not want to be part of this production-based commercial utopia must necessarily suffer) the definition of everything alls apart and sub-labels become attached, ascribed, whatever. But that's still lazy thought. My major rant is the validity of training people to be producers from birth, of mental invasion. Of Constant headspace and airspace being the sole property of those that can afford it. You said yourself 'life isn't fair'. I don't believe that statement to be valid, I'm skeptical of the way it uses seemingly unassumptive evolutionary 'truth' to spirit away another truth: Making life unfair is not excused by saying that life is unfair. The 'survival of the fittest' assumption that is coming to the fore again, is better suited to the days of the cotton mills and chain factories in Victorian England than it is in any reference to the 'natural' world. And reducing us to animals is denying the fact that we have a function of rationalization. It's irrational to think that people have to be 'forced' to behave, the greatest threat to our behavioural and rational development is locking people away in a state of constant 'productivity', one that dissolves the spirit into hours and minutes and dollars. That's not progress, that's stasis, no matter how many lives are 'saved', no matter how many new gadgets we make. The lifestyle we are being sold is an ad-mans vision of linear progress. We do not progress in a linear fashion, that's in line with expansionist thought. There's no 'backwards' and 'forwards' there's just 'better' or 'worse'.
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morfe 2992 posts |
Sep 20, 2003, 18:57
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What is this saying that 'capitalism ISN'T America, or the current administration? Has George Bush 'hijacked' the notion of Capitalism to his won ends and Enrons'? Or is he a child of capitalism? It's very convenient to say that Communism 'isn't' Pol Pot, or Capitalism isn't fascism. But why live in an idyll. Bush is a billion dollar baby, undeveloped, rich, and in control. That's capitalism.
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morfe 2992 posts |
Sep 20, 2003, 19:00
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I don't see any way out of the X vs. Y continuum. What about the other 24 letters?? ;-)
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morfe 2992 posts |
Sep 20, 2003, 19:33
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It's my belief that in a very short time frame in human history our thought has devolved to a level of numb fear, and freedom is far too violent and alien a notion (the unquantifiable, it does not compute) for the great great majority of people. The remaining option is to choose the bully who rules your actions and most of your thoughts, lest as a free individual, someone threatened you and the state wasn't there, it;s like a protection racket, and capitalism is beating the commies, not unsurprisingly. It's still all too controlling for me. But I'm aware that I'm an abberation, as this discussion never goes anywhere. I sometimes cry with a weird kind of rage that I want to be a free person and be able to build my own house, and I KNOW I 'shouldn't' want that with such a passion. The only option I have is complete solitude, or shut up and join a game that I'm never going to win, but at least you're sitting at the table if you work hard enough. I also know I've been trained by the media to be afraid of people. I know that they too are trained to be afraid of their fellow citizens. There's no profit in unity, divide and conquer. I don't see this as some kind of paranoid 'masterplan', just the natural psychological evolution of an expansionist greed-based system of exploitation dressed as liberation from 'savagery'. The assumption that capitalism is keeping 'civilization' rolling along is nonsense. The psychologist we employ to unravel our daily stresses will not be automatically and mystically replaced by witch doctors just because we remove the reasons of the stress. I would argue that freedom is the most single terrifying concept to the modern mind. It immediately brings thoughts to violence. That's not because 'freedom' is any more violent than our current industrialized world , (we kill millions around the world yearly), it's just that we kid ourselves that we are 'civilised' because we have things like the police and mobile phones, when in truth, we are less civilised on account of our irrational fears, and limited to being consumers and producers in a bigger cage than we have been told that we deserve..
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Lawrence 9547 posts |
Sep 20, 2003, 19:52
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Of course I agree that life isn't always fair, but that has nothing to do with how unjust the US government has been since WW2 (and perhaps even before...)
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Dog 3000 4611 posts |
Sep 20, 2003, 20:10
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This is pretty interesting stuff. I guess the underlying assumptions that differ in our world views have to do with such things as the fact that I don't feel threatened by "freedom", I cherish it -- and I am not afraid of other people etiher (even ones with a different skin tone or sexual orientation.) I know I am lucky. I am self-employed, meaning "my own boss." I don't make a lot of money, but enough to get by. I have chosen to live where I do, and can travel when and where I want to. I can express my political opinions to "thousands" by posting stuff on internet forums (this isn't the main one I hang out in.) I can smoke weed and play in a rocknroll band. I doubt any of the above would be true if I lived in the Soviet Union (I'm sure Stalin would have thrown me in the gulag or worse.) I am optimistic about human nature, but pragmatic at the same time. Ever seen the film "Night of the Hunter" where Robt Mitchum makes the speech about having "love" and "hate" tattooed on his knuckles (reprised by the Radio Rahim character in "Do The Right Thing)? I think that's a pretty profound way of looking at human nature -- it's a constant battle between our good and bad instincts inside every individual. On to man vs nature -- you could say the "bad" instincts are the natural, competitive ones. The "good" impulses are the civilized, "man-made" ones. (Or as Camille Paglia put it, "we're not born good and learn to be bad, we're born bad and learn to be good.") We are "more than the animals" largely to the extent we've come up with cultural and moral codes that encourage us to "love one another and work together." Turn on any nature show and you'll see different species of animals killing & eating each other, female spiders devouring their mates, male animals fighting each other for supremacy in the group hierarchy. I think this is the "natural state" of homo sapiens, and to the extent those tendencies are reduced it's "what we learn from birth" that is responsible. This may be the key underlying difference in our viewpoints. "Capitalism" has little to do with any of this. You show me just about any "evil of capitalism" and I can demonstrate to you that it's been an aspect of human society since long before "capitalism" existed (born c. 1800).
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Dog 3000 4611 posts |
Sep 20, 2003, 20:17
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The X vs. Y is actually a simpler version of a more complicated meme (I didn't invent this stuff, though I don't remember who did.) Imagine a more complicated system with 2 axes (and to make it more general, I'm replacing "state" with "collective"): X to Y axis: total individual freedom vs. total collective control on ECONOMIC matters (how you earn & spend money, property, inheritence, etc.) A to B axis: total individual freedom vs. total collective control on SOCIAL matters (what you can say, who you can have sex with and what drugs you can take, your religious and ideological beliefs, etc.) Now when we place different "systems" on the grid it gets more subtle. For example presnet-day People's Rep of China has a lot more economic freedom than the old Soviet system did -- but they're pretty similar in terms of personal freedom. A country like Sweden probably has more personal freedoms than the USA, but also a lot less economic freedom (50% tax rate . . .) Again, to me "the issues" are how best to blend A, B, X & Y to best solve a specific issue. And feel free to use more letters and come up with more axes . . . but somehow I don't think you'll ever escape from the basic notions of collective control vs. individual control.
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Dog 3000 4611 posts |
Sep 20, 2003, 20:20
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Then let's be fair and also talk about how unjust the Soviet Union was after WW2 (and the Russians still are in Chechnya) . . . let's talk about Iran and Yugoslavia and Sudan . . . it's not like the US govt is the only one that's done bad things in recent years.
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Lawrence 9547 posts |
Sep 20, 2003, 21:15
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Yeah, I agree. I don't think it excuses the US government behavior. In fact, I think the US is worse because of its hypocrisy.
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Lawrence 9547 posts |
Sep 20, 2003, 21:20
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Frankly, I don't need a government to tell me I'm free. I am free in spirit.
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