stray
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Re: Better than Capitalism
Sep 14, 2003, 13:04
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I cant think of a perfect country either.
But being an apologist for capitalism isn't the right thing to be either IMO. It smacks a lot of the 'american dream' that everyone has an equal chance to succeed within the system, which is blatantly a lie to keep people from challenging the system.
There are a few ideologies that are preferable, Communism (as per the actual manifesto and not as in how its been practiced) would be preferable. And, Anarchy would be a utopia, though highly improbable to happen any day soon, all things considered.
The basic point is any system that works through competition requires losers to function. If society has losers then society is failing. Thats terribly black and white I know, but there's no getting away from it. I mean, would less losers actually be better ?
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stray
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Re: Better than Capitalism
Sep 14, 2003, 13:04
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Yeah, better, but it'll never be perfect.
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duckbreath
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Re: Better than Capitalism
Sep 14, 2003, 17:55
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but at least in america and here you have much greater sphere of freedom - as appreciated by chomsky nabokov etc - all americas critics who benefit from americas successes -
communism forbids two consenting adults to make a cappitalistic act between them - a major element of unfreedom - and is a big shitty mess wherever it has happened.
in a communits country you'd be first against the wall - it doesnt want thinking people it wants obedient uncritical people
america and britain are great places to live and i'm sure you might not admit it but you subconscoiously appreciate it every time you want to go on holiday, claim a benefit, go to the dentist, read critical political literature - i must say that this doesnt mean i aint in favour of a little sensitivity with regard to the way it conducts business with other nations and cultures
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duckbreath
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Re: Better than Capitalism
Sep 14, 2003, 17:57
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sorry clarification i mention chomsky as someone who lives in a country that is one of the only ones which gives him the freedom to write and express himself - he isnt free or safe to do it ianywhere else
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Dog 3000
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Immigration
Sep 16, 2003, 19:21
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It's not the immigrants themselves who "make it rich" -- the success comes when their kids go to college and their descendents generations down the road get all the benefits of "middle class westerndom."
Go to someplace like LA and look at all the immigrants (mostly poor and uneducated) but also look at all the children and grandchildren of immigrants (plenty are college educated, middle & upper class.)
It's not about "striking it rich" so much as building a better life for your children. And that's something most traditional societies aren't good at -- in those cases "how far you can go in life" is determined more by family connections than how hard you're willing to work.
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morfe
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Re: Immigration
Sep 16, 2003, 20:12
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"how hard you're willing to work."
It's not all about how hard people work, it's about staying ahead of the 'game'. It's about getting a leg up, it's about 'having the right connections', otherwise it's about selling your soul to pay for your dinner, working self-employed for 60-70 hrs a week just to keep a roof over your head. Why? For the greater good of society? No! because this world is set up by rich people to profit from the rest, which means that pathological achieving- individual 'success stories' can go from 'zeros' to 'heros' (more like stereotyping than poetry, more like eulogising than harmonising!) get to call all the shots because they are greedy!! No different than the Romans. We've all seen it in the movies, but what about REAL LIFE, what about the majority, what about the 'loser', I FROTH at the constant reinforcing 'winner'-'loser' black/white system we are encouraging. Contest mobility may be great in good humour and at the village-hall summer run. But is it the best way to run the world? Let the greedheads decide everything???
Who's the loserr today? Oh, poor little Indian farmers, they are hanging themselves because they owe money to lenders. They are being pushed in the very moment of misery to adopt GM crops, licensed seeds, and blah blah blah, whilst food gets stockpiled. Winner/Loser. They get no help, all they get is personal liability in a world going crazy for profit at the cost of life.
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duckbreath
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Re: Immigration
Sep 17, 2003, 12:05
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yeah but thats why you have safeguards to protect the people at the bottom who out of choice or necessity are not involved with the shifting capital around - and they have to be protected from the whims of capital lead politicians
but you still got to allow people as free citizens the freedom to buy and sell to make their lives better
you have to allow free people the option of becoming a capitalistic greedhead if they want to be - just make sure you tell kids that it's no real achievement and also make sure that if they do decide to go this way they have no monopoly over political power - i am sure there are libraries of literature that say that this is an inevitabilty but i don't think it is and am suspicious of people's agenda who demand that it is.
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