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tiompan
tiompan
5758 posts

Avebury stones .
Mar 10, 2017, 17:23
It appears that only in Avebury do we find the half serious suggestion of gendered stones related to their shape , all the other major monuments in the UK and elsewhere don't appear to have bothered to distinguish between genders . When there is a gender difference , as in stelae , the shape of the stones are similar .

The earliest mention of it seems to be Keiller and his fertility cult belief , possibly inspired by interest in witchcraft . Linda Murray mentions how “one Halloween night found him leading a small group of associates out into the garden of the manor at Avebury. He carried before him a phallic symbol, and bowing three times before the Statue of Pan, he chanted 'witchlike' incantations. him carrying a phallic symbol and bowing thee times before the statue of Pan “

Burl pointed out that sarsens occur naturally in two types Type A (Diamond ) . Type B (Pillar ) .Like the theory ,that seems an over simplification .The shapes of the sarsens in the henge are far more varied than that .
An obvious problem apart from the general shapes is the the tops , and how they vary from one type to the other i.e. both types A & B can have a pointed or flat tops .

Burl also said “along the rows of the avenue not only were Type A stones set opposite Type B stones but that the types alternated along each row so that whether one looked across the row or along it there was always a contrasting shape “ and also, still referring to the avenue , “Type A ,diamond , alternating with Type B ,pillar, on each side and standing opposite to each other from east to west “
Not only are we dealing with very limited numbers to form any judgement but the description does not match the reality .
There is a maximum of 14 opposed pairs from the supposed original of approx 100 pairs and of those, 6 pairs have stumps less than a metre high and therefore useless for an estimation of either type (A or B) , and if anything they would have to be considered as being similar .
That leaves 8 pairs from the approximate 100 pairs . Of those pair 15 is unclear , pair 26 has a diamond but it is not opposed to what would called a pillar in that it is wider than the diamond and in most circumstances would be considered “female “ the same applies to pair 37 .
Pairs 13 , 18 and 35 are certainly of the opposed types ,
The pair at 33 are both similar but as 33a was probably erected upside down by Keiller we can't say what the top section may have looked like but we can see the general shape and it is not a pillar . pair 32 are both pillars
So from the 8 pairs, 3 are debatable , 3 certain, and 2 certainly don't fit . As it only takes one to disprove the theory there is more than enough proof ,and considering that is based on approx 8% of the total the extrapolation says it all .
It gets even sillier when we look at the Longstones , Adam and Eve . In this case the the narrow pillar like stone is Eve and the much wider “female “ shaped stone is Adam , a hint of prehistoric cross dressing perhaps .
Thanks to Steve Marshall's “Exploring Averbury “ , which made the comparisons much easier .
tjj
tjj
3606 posts

Edited Mar 10, 2017, 18:46
Re: Avebury stones .
Mar 10, 2017, 18:45
A very good read Tiompan, I didn't know about Keiller's interest in witchcraft but guess he was contemporaneous with Aleister Crowley when that brand of witchcraft was popular.

Steve will be chuffed to see you have used his book in this context as he meticulously photographed,paired and numbered the Avenue stones under his section 'Sexing the Stones'. In regard to 'male/female' stones he mentions Keiller and Piggott but goes on to say Although the idea was never more than conjecture, it persists to this day and is often regarded as fact.

Btw, Steve's new book on Standing Stones is now available, only £6 (ordered my copy today).
http://www.thehistorypress.co.uk/publication/standing-stones/9781841657530/
tiompan
tiompan
5758 posts

Re: Avebury stones .
Mar 10, 2017, 19:09
tjj wrote:
A very good read Tiompan, I didn't know about Keiller's interest in witchcraft but guess he was contemporaneous with Aleister Crowley when that brand of witchcraft was popular.

Steve will be chuffed to see you have used his book in this context as he meticulously photographed,paired and numbered the Avenue stones under his section 'Sexing the Stones'. In regard to 'male/female' stones he mentions Keiller and Piggott but goes on to say Although the idea was never more than conjecture, it persists to this day and is often regarded as fact.

Btw, Steve's new book on Standing Stones is now available, only £6 (ordered my copy today).
http://www.thehistorypress.co.uk/publication/standing-stones/9781841657530/



Keiller did meet Gerald Gardner , dunno about Crowley , the former was interested in archaeology so that could have explained the connection .
Lynda Murray's biography of Keiller , "A zest for Life " is worth a read .She points out how Keiller, writing on witchcraft ,showed that Margaret Murray's idea of covens was wrong and that the “witches “ were solitary individuals . Antonia White has a great story in her diary about a naked keiller , except for a mac , wicker work and an umbrella

Yes , Steve's book , made it all much simpler .

It doesn't take long for conjecture to become repeated then unquestioningly accepted as truth , particularly if it suits an agenda or makes stuff appear simpler than it is .
tjj
tjj
3606 posts

Re: Avebury stones .
Mar 11, 2017, 15:57
tiompan wrote:
tjj wrote:
A very good read Tiompan, I didn't know about Keiller's interest in witchcraft but guess he was contemporaneous with Aleister Crowley when that brand of witchcraft was popular.

Steve will be chuffed to see you have used his book in this context as he meticulously photographed,paired and numbered the Avenue stones under his section 'Sexing the Stones'. In regard to 'male/female' stones he mentions Keiller and Piggott but goes on to say Although the idea was never more than conjecture, it persists to this day and is often regarded as fact.

Btw, Steve's new book on Standing Stones is now available, only £6 (ordered my copy today).
http://www.thehistorypress.co.uk/publication/standing-stones/9781841657530/


Keiller did meet Gerald Gardner , dunno about Crowley , the former was interested in archaeology so that could have explained the connection .
Lynda Murray's biography of Keiller , "A zest for Life " is worth a read .She points out how Keiller, writing on witchcraft ,showed that Margaret Murray's idea of covens was wrong and that the “witches “ were solitary individuals . Antonia White has a great story in her diary about a naked keiller , except for a mac , wicker work and an umbrella ...


Just been reading a rather long but very interesting article by Bob Trubshaw about Keiller's interest in the Scottish witchcraft trials and is association with Gerald Gardner - mentioning Aleister Crowley was inaccurate on my behalf. There doesn't seem to be anything to suggest they ever met.
http://www.indigogroup.co.uk/avebury/keiller01.htm
Bob Trubshaw's article does mention Keiller excavated several carved chalk phalluses on Windmill Hill - which is something I may have known but had forgotten about.
tiompan
tiompan
5758 posts

Re: Avebury stones .
Mar 11, 2017, 17:50
tjj wrote:
tiompan wrote:
tjj wrote:
A very good read Tiompan, I didn't know about Keiller's interest in witchcraft but guess he was contemporaneous with Aleister Crowley when that brand of witchcraft was popular.

Steve will be chuffed to see you have used his book in this context as he meticulously photographed,paired and numbered the Avenue stones under his section 'Sexing the Stones'. In regard to 'male/female' stones he mentions Keiller and Piggott but goes on to say Although the idea was never more than conjecture, it persists to this day and is often regarded as fact.

Btw, Steve's new book on Standing Stones is now available, only £6 (ordered my copy today).
http://www.thehistorypress.co.uk/publication/standing-stones/9781841657530/


Keiller did meet Gerald Gardner , dunno about Crowley , the former was interested in archaeology so that could have explained the connection .
Lynda Murray's biography of Keiller , "A zest for Life " is worth a read .She points out how Keiller, writing on witchcraft ,showed that Margaret Murray's idea of covens was wrong and that the “witches “ were solitary individuals . Antonia White has a great story in her diary about a naked keiller , except for a mac , wicker work and an umbrella ...


Just been reading a rather long but very interesting article by Bob Trubshaw about Keiller's interest in the Scottish witchcraft trials and is association with Gerald Gardner - mentioning Aleister Crowley was inaccurate on my behalf. There doesn't seem to be anything to suggest they ever met.
http://www.indigogroup.co.uk/avebury/keiller01.htm
Bob Trubshaw's article does mention Keiller excavated several carved chalk phalluses on Windmill Hill - which is something I may have known but had forgotten about.



That is great and more extensive than is found in the Zest book .
Looks like it was maybe witchcraft and much earlier beliefs and attitudes rather than the "western mystery tradition " that he was interested in.

He was born in a house a couple of hundred metres from where I went to school . And though he had left the area quite young he may have been aware of the the infamous witch trials in Forfar where the family would have had fruit growing connections .
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
6200 posts

Re: Avebury stones .
Mar 11, 2017, 18:50
It's been suggested at Boscawen Un too, with the central pillar male and the single quartz stone - a squarish block -female. I think JC refers to this in TMA.
tiompan
tiompan
5758 posts

Re: Avebury stones .
Mar 11, 2017, 20:04
Do you buy it ?
It doesn't have the falsifiability that the suggestion about the avenue did .

What about the other stones ?
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
6200 posts

Re: Avebury stones .
Mar 11, 2017, 21:54
tiompan wrote:
Do you buy it ?
It doesn't have the falsifiability that the suggestion about the avenue did .

What about the other stones ?


I don't really buy it but it can't be proven or disproven as far as I can see. It's a nice bit of mythology but lacks any earlier corroboration in folklore that I've heard of.
tiompan
tiompan
5758 posts

Re: Avebury stones .
Mar 11, 2017, 22:06
thesweetcheat wrote:
tiompan wrote:
Do you buy it ?
It doesn't have the falsifiability that the suggestion about the avenue did .

What about the other stones ?


I don't really buy it but it can't be proven or disproven as far as I can see. It's a nice bit of mythology but lacks any earlier corroboration in folklore that I've heard of.



That's it , unlike the Avebury case, which can be disproven , you can only shrug your shoulders , " maybe , maybe not ".

But even if if there was historic corroboration , it would only be a slightly earlier version of the 20 th C folklore , giving us an insight into how punters thought of the site in the middle ages or later .
tjj
tjj
3606 posts

Re: Avebury stones .
Mar 12, 2017, 00:16
thesweetcheat wrote:
It's been suggested at Boscawen Un too, with the central pillar male and the single quartz stone - a squarish block -female. I think JC refers to this in TMA.


Hi tsc, must admit I hadn't taken this suggestion on board (will have to check the TMA book). I loved this stone circle and my initial impression was that it was some sort of annual sun-dial, probably because of the leaning stone. But as with most ancient monuments it wasn't how it originally looked. I liked this possible explanation taken from
http://www.ancient-wisdom.com/englandboscawen.htm

"Analysis of the circle’s architecture suggests that the central stone is likely to have been erected before the rest of the circle; it is shaped like an axe and contains relief carvings of two stone axes at the bottom of the stone. Several sources of greenstone, from which many Cornish polished stone axes were made, are found in west Cornwall and it has been suggested that the Boscawen Un circle was built to celebrate the axe."
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