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Andy Norfolk
58 posts

Re: John Michell lecture
May 05, 2016, 14:38
I forgot to mention that another reason John chose to do this work in West Penwith was because it is a small enough area so that the effects of curvature of the earth wouldn't introduce significant errors into map alignments. John had a good sense of humour but he was a very clever bloke. He set out to show that there really were alignments of ancient sites and I think he succeeded.
Andy Norfolk
58 posts

Re: John Michell lecture
May 05, 2016, 14:47
Aaargh - he said Cornwall is England!
Andy Norfolk
58 posts

Re: John Michell lecture
May 05, 2016, 15:36
I forgot how bad John was at pronouncing Cornish names. I was always prepared to forgive that because of his enthusiasm.
nigelswift
8112 posts

Re: John Michell lecture
May 05, 2016, 15:43
Andy Norfolk wrote:
Some of you appear to dislike the whole concept of alignments of ancient sites, which is a touch ironic now that professional archaeologist talk about this a lot nowadays.


Andy, I really don't know where you got that from. Names? I bet there's no-one here that doesn't accept “alignments of ancient standing stones visible in the landscape” as valid. I myself have been in on the ground floor of Sandy Gerrard's work at Bancbryn which led to The Stone Rows of Great Britain https://stonerows.wordpress.com/, a fantastic production IMO.

When it comes to alignments that are NOT visible in the landscape, which depend on a belief in “energies” between them and are great distances apart, then that's different. Sandy has put together something that is a major contribution that doesn't rely on anything that can't be seen by others and for that reason no-one is calling him “visionary”, just highly competent. He's the one that should be being praised here.

(I find it ironic that the word “visionary” seems to be being used to describe people who believe in the invisible! I think “believers” would be far more appropriate. )
Andy Norfolk
58 posts

Re: John Michell lecture
May 05, 2016, 15:47
That's all fine and dandy, but there's no good reason for people sneering at John Michell in this thread.
Paldywan
3 posts

Re: John Michell lecture
May 05, 2016, 16:05
Well, in my judgement there have been not just a few high horses ridden in this discussion! One thing in particular that has not been mentioned, unless I missed something, is that pioneers such as John Michell never get everything right, and never will - that's for those who follow after them to sort out. Their purpose is to open seminal doorways and turn keys in locks. It is also rare that anyone does a comprehensive geomantic survey of any area, as John did - one of the weaknesses in most branches of geomancy is that research can be very bitty and incomprehensive. In this, John set a standard that few have repeated over the decades. More needs doing in this area.

John Michell did remarkable work on the ancient sites of Penwith. I have checked every single alignment he described and found only two out of seventyish that are inaccurate and incorrect - an admissible error. My own work has been double-checked by two other well-experienced people. On the whole his alignments are accurate and work well, including those where various contributors to this discussion find errors with map references. Really, he needed a collaborator with a slightly different brain than his, to sort out some of those details.

West Penwith lends itself well as a geomantic laboratory because it is a discreet area with defined edges, many sites, a good number of experts living locally and a certain magic. Standing on John's and others' shoulders, I've been working on the alignments in Penwith and, interestingly, have found an integrated system of alignments that John didn't find - mainly because he restricted himself to using menhirs and stone circles as the basis for his work, while I have included neolithic tor enclosures and 'cliff castles', which have revealed a complete alignment system in Penwith (I call them backbone alignments) dating from the mid-to-late neolithic, which itself determines the location of the major bronze age sites of Penwith, such as the stone circles. (An example: take a line from Carn Brea near Redruth to St Michael's Mount to Treryn Dinas - amazingly, three natural features that are themselves aligned - and you'll find that the Merry Maidens stone circle sits exactly on it.)

All alignments in the work I have done (see here for the full range of maps: www.ancientpenwith.org/maps.html ) are within 3 metres accuracy (sometimes 5 metres in certain carefully-judged cases). Clearly this will not please the high and mighty armchair sceptics who hover around in this field, but certain poorly thought through, reductionist views which have prevailed over recent decades certainly need now to square up with reality, especially as a result of objective fact-checking. I'm sure there are some, but not that many, errors in my own work, but using this 'facts' claim to reinforce an a priori prejudice that alignments cannot work, therefore they don't, is a late twentieth century meme that founders when real, detailed, comprehensive and proportioned fact-checking is actually carried out. Which isn't often done.

Anyway, I have gone into the details of the work I've been doing on the Ancient Penwith website at www.ancientpenwith.org and I have examined the alignments at some length on that site, and you're welcome to wade through it all, if so moved, and constructive peer review is very welcome. Negative critique will attract my sympathy though probably not my agreement - sorry, but I've actually done the work and stand by my findings! I live right at the centre of West Penwith, on a farm not far from St Just, by the way.

My aim has been to try to penetrate the minds of the neolithics and bronzies a little bit more than before because, as one who otherwise works in the humanitarian and peacebuilding arena in Palestine and Syria, I am well aware that we need to try to learn as much as we can about the knowledge the megalith builders had for the future. (And if you think Britain is rich in ancient sites, Palestine and Syria are much, much deeper geomantic waters to swim in - and herein lies part of the reason why conflicts happen there.) It concerns deep-level geo-engineering of a kind that I believe is necessary in the coming times - but an engineering that works *with* nature to enhance its own self-correcting and self-balancing processes. As in Tom Graves' 1970s concept of needles of stone.

And I think John Michell's contribution to this field deserves a much higher quality and more serious response than what I've seen in much of this discussion. Sorry if I sound critical, but he deserves far better than that.

Best wishes, Palden
Andy Norfolk
58 posts

Re: John Michell lecture
May 05, 2016, 16:11
Wot Palden said!
Sanctuary
Sanctuary
4670 posts

Re: John Michell lecture
May 05, 2016, 16:31
Paldywan wrote:
Well, in my judgement there have been not just a few high horses ridden in this discussion! One thing in particular that has not been mentioned, unless I missed something, is that pioneers such as John Michell never get everything right, and never will - that's for those who follow after them to sort out. Their purpose is to open seminal doorways and turn keys in locks. It is also rare that anyone does a comprehensive geomantic survey of any area, as John did - one of the weaknesses in most branches of geomancy is that research can be very bitty and incomprehensive. In this, John set a standard that few have repeated over the decades. More needs doing in this area.

John Michell did remarkable work on the ancient sites of Penwith. I have checked every single alignment he described and found only two out of seventyish that are inaccurate and incorrect - an admissible error. My own work has been double-checked by two other well-experienced people. On the whole his alignments are accurate and work well, including those where various contributors to this discussion find errors with map references. Really, he needed a collaborator with a slightly different brain than his, to sort out some of those details.

West Penwith lends itself well as a geomantic laboratory because it is a discreet area with defined edges, many sites, a good number of experts living locally and a certain magic. Standing on John's and others' shoulders, I've been working on the alignments in Penwith and, interestingly, have found an integrated system of alignments that John didn't find - mainly because he restricted himself to using menhirs and stone circles as the basis for his work, while I have included neolithic tor enclosures and 'cliff castles', which have revealed a complete alignment system in Penwith (I call them backbone alignments) dating from the mid-to-late neolithic, which itself determines the location of the major bronze age sites of Penwith, such as the stone circles. (An example: take a line from Carn Brea near Redruth to St Michael's Mount to Treryn Dinas - amazingly, three natural features that are themselves aligned - and you'll find that the Merry Maidens stone circle sits exactly on it.)

All alignments in the work I have done (see here for the full range of maps: www.ancientpenwith.org/maps.html ) are within 3 metres accuracy (sometimes 5 metres in certain carefully-judged cases). Clearly this will not please the high and mighty armchair sceptics who hover around in this field, but certain poorly thought through, reductionist views which have prevailed over recent decades certainly need now to square up with reality, especially as a result of objective fact-checking. I'm sure there are some, but not that many, errors in my own work, but using this 'facts' claim to reinforce an a priori prejudice that alignments cannot work, therefore they don't, is a late twentieth century meme that founders when real, detailed, comprehensive and proportioned fact-checking is actually carried out. Which isn't often done.

Anyway, I have gone into the details of the work I've been doing on the Ancient Penwith website at www.ancientpenwith.org and I have examined the alignments at some length on that site, and you're welcome to wade through it all, if so moved, and constructive peer review is very welcome. Negative critique will attract my sympathy though probably not my agreement - sorry, but I've actually done the work and stand by my findings! I live right at the centre of West Penwith, on a farm not far from St Just, by the way.

My aim has been to try to penetrate the minds of the neolithics and bronzies a little bit more than before because, as one who otherwise works in the humanitarian and peacebuilding arena in Palestine and Syria, I am well aware that we need to try to learn as much as we can about the knowledge the megalith builders had for the future. (And if you think Britain is rich in ancient sites, Palestine and Syria are much, much deeper geomantic waters to swim in - and herein lies part of the reason why conflicts happen there.) It concerns deep-level geo-engineering of a kind that I believe is necessary in the coming times - but an engineering that works *with* nature to enhance its own self-correcting and self-balancing processes. As in Tom Graves' 1970s concept of needles of stone.

And I think John Michell's contribution to this field deserves a much higher quality and more serious response than what I've seen in much of this discussion. Sorry if I sound critical, but he deserves far better than that.

Best wishes, Palden


Excellent post and a breath of fresh air. Someone who actually knows what he's talking about from the sharp end.
nigelswift
8112 posts

Re: John Michell lecture
May 05, 2016, 16:41
Andy Norfolk wrote:
That's all fine and dandy, but there's no good reason for people sneering at John Michell in this thread.


Well THAT's all fine and dandy but you haven't aswered the question who here dislikes the whole concept of alignments of ancient sites. Having made the assertion maybe you ought to explain?
Andy Norfolk
58 posts

Re: John Michell lecture
May 05, 2016, 17:00
Nigel Swift wrote "If you mean he patently saw things that weren't there by being careless with the evidence I'd agree. (Rubbing posts were not put there for cattle "I'd imagine" is a classic example. Suddenly, the number of stones in a supposed "ley" is greatly increased, and all without the aid of an ounce of critical thinking!)"
Of course you may not have meant that John Michell's alignments were not credible, or that alignments in general were not credible. The use of the inverted commas around "leys" suggests scepticism, but you may not have meant that either.
You also wrote "What is the nature of a "contribution" to ley lines? Can one make a contribution to goblins?" I really don't know what you meant there.
Tiompan wrote "The problems with original conception of ley lines I thought old hat and everyone would bbe aware of that ."

So...
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