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The Modern Antiquarian Forum » A Yorkshire Silbury? |
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Gwass 183 posts |
Apr 21, 2012, 11:30
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Hi Everyone I've just watched an episode of Time Team on More4 which is one I saw a couple of years ago and had been wanting to see again since. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnToOWJ0Gmk&feature=sh_e_se&list=SL It's filmed in East Yorkshire and the landowner has found lots of prehistoric artifacts including part of a polished axe, a nice leaf shaped arrowhead and other bits and bobs. The episode is predominantly a Norman one but like so many others there a fair bit of the prehsitoric in it. The major revelation IMO is the landscape stuff from Stuarts roamings. There's a huge artificial mound which was the site of a Norman Motte which Stuart thinks was originally a neolithic mound, it looks for all the world like a mini sibury hill. Especially the ariel shots placing it in a natural bowl in the landscape. More significantly is the fact that in prehistory (and the medieval) the land was marsh and the area surrounding the mound was flooded. I know even today the area around silbury gets flooded and have seen numerous pictures where it's like it's in the middle of a lake. I think there's a book by Lothar Respondek that deals with silbury and water & we all know the significance of wider neolithic sites and water. The similarities with silbury are striking and possibly hint at a wider phenomenon of massive non burial neolithic round mounds and watery zones. Could this seasonal phenomenon be significant in terms of meaning and symbolism to our neolithic ancestors? I know there's many mottes which could have their origins in the neolithic so maybe silbury, silbaby and Marlborough are the tip of the iceberg. (There's a pun in there somewhere!) Where I grew up there's a Eddlesborough church ontop of a huge mound which is thought to be neolithic. The bits showing the axe and arrowhead are at the start and the bit with the mound is at 16mins in. Not sure what it all could mean but I just wanted to put it out there. What does everyone else think?
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Rhiannon 4556 posts |
Edited Apr 21, 2012, 12:35
Apr 21, 2012, 12:34
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Is it near the gypsey race and mounds like Willy Howe and Ba'l Hill? http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/3186/gypsey_race.html they sound rather similar to what you're interested in?
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Rhiannon 4556 posts |
Edited Apr 21, 2012, 12:42
Apr 21, 2012, 12:38
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oh and duggleby howe is similar too and also near the stream, near its source http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/92/ (on a different tma page. I suppose because it's not east yorkshire. so it sort of makes sense)
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GLADMAN 520 posts |
Apr 21, 2012, 13:57
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Gwass wrote: I know there's many mottes which could have their origins in the neolithic so maybe silbury, silbaby and Marlborough are the tip of the iceberg. (There's a pun in there somewhere!) Where I grew up there's a Eddlesborough church ontop of a huge mound which is thought to be neolithic... One of the points to note about early Norman castles is that speed of construction would have appeared to have been of primary importance... get a defence in place for the cavalry asap in a country still considered far from subdued. Hence the number of castles erected within decaying Roman forts (Pevensey, Porchester ect), the erection of mottes within Iron Age hillforts (Old Sarum, Thetford etc). Regarding the latter, one of the intruiging things about Iron Age enclosures is the way in which previous ritual monuments were often not destroyed or cleared away, but retained within, despite the inconvenience (Hambledon Hill, Cley Hill, Foel Drygarn etc etc). I think it's therefore certainly a real possibility that Neolithic 'harvest mounds' - or whatever else they might have represented - erected upon 'special' hills might well have been retained within subsequent Iron Age enclosures. Then, along come the Bastard's lot and think.... that do nicely.... little bit of adjustment and we have ourselves a ready made motte and bailey. I've always had a sneaking suspicion about the enormous motte at Thetford. Surely too big?
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Resonox 604 posts |
Apr 21, 2012, 16:33
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Just to throw another ingredient in the pot(and go slightly OT)...watching Time Team sometimes they find fragments of a pot or drinking vessel which is an anomoly because it is "out of time"....and their stock answer is always that this is proof of earlier occupation....is there no way that a "valuable" amphora(piece of jewellery works in this scenario too) from (say) Roman times could be the Saxon equivalent of an heirloom which got smashed/broken/damaged beyond repair during the initial settlement of a Saxon site and was subsequently tossed ito the posthole/foundations prior to building work or even used as a votive offering to assuage whatever Spirits Of dwelling needed assuaging? This would be a logical explanation for bits and bobs of things found which the timeline can't explain. Same goes for the theory of Barrows being used as ready made Motte and Bailey foundations...digging in might disturb something nonperishable which might get transferred from it's original site to a ditch foundation.
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Gwass 183 posts |
Apr 21, 2012, 19:35
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I'm not sure haven't looked into it yet but I know that area is quite prolific for Neolithic round mounds. Will have to look into it. I think they're east Yorkshire too.
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Gwass 183 posts |
Apr 21, 2012, 19:42
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Yeah it certainly makes sense to use something that's already there rather than build from scratch in hostile territory. Also they would lend themselves to strategic locations as you'd think that they'd be placed in spots with wide ranging views across the area and settlement would most likely spring up near then becoming the villages/towns in the medieval period. I'm not saying all Norman mottes will be Neolithic but I think there's a lot more than currently accepted. Did you see the vid and did you have any thoughts on the similarity with silbury with the flooding around it?
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A R Cane 15 posts |
Apr 23, 2012, 20:31
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I believe Lewes, East Sussex, may also be a case in point. Three very large mounds in a town on a hill (almost surrounded by water in the past) and then two of the mounds utilised very early on in the Norman conquest for the building of Lewes Castle. http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/1670/tump_lewes.html
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Resonox 604 posts |
Apr 24, 2012, 16:43
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Some years back I visited Callander....and had a wander on St. Kessog' Mount....(it is permitted there)....the plaque states it is a part of a Motte and Bailey....yet St Kessog is said to have preached there (cica 6th cent)...which means it was there prior to his arrival(unless he had it specially made)...and certainly earlier than M&B...which is said to arrived with Normans. I didn't get a chance to explore more of this delightful little town.....Would have loved to visit the Roman Camp(does the mound pre-date them too?)..to see what history that offered....plus there are some fairly impressive barrows all close by.
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