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The Modern Antiquarian Forum » Myths, truths and theories - Stonehenge |
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tiompan 5758 posts |
Sep 05, 2010, 14:18
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Sanctuary wrote: nigelswift wrote: tiompa wrote: Timber circles may have had "lintels " and considering the reference to wood in the stonehenge architecture this could have been a source of inspiration . Despite having suggested you can't put percentages on unknowns I reckon it's 99.999% certain there were pre-existing Stonehenge-type timber monuments. You'd have to be seriously tapped to construct tongue and groove and mortise and tenon joints in massive sarsens without having first learned to create them in wood! Well for a start they are hardly mortise and tenon joints in the true sense of the joint are they. At best they are stub tenons and very small ones at that. I'm a carpenter/joiner by profession and to create a true mortise and tenon out of stone where the tenon goes right through the adjoining stone using other stones as tools is pushing their skills too far. I never said mortise and tenon (although stonemasons do use a similar method to that found on the trilithons and call it mortise and tenon ), merely noted the unnecessary use of the method may have been inspired by and referenced earlier timber monuments that may have had lintels .
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
Sep 05, 2010, 14:24
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nigelswift wrote: But my point is that you wouldn't invest hundreds of hours in producing joints you'd never produced before. It doesn't prove the pre-Stonehenge landscape was covered with round timber structures comprising uprights and rings of lintols but it does suggest it was.... As for pushing their talents too far, each lintol has three or four joints of two different types and is curved in one plane and tapered in the other and fits into the ring pretty well so it's quite a good effort. A good effort indeed but working a lintol to produce a curve and two cupped shaped depressions and an upright with a nobbly tenon a different matter to producing a proper m&t joint. I know it's only a name and hardly relevent but things shoud be termed correctly as it can give the wrong impression. I suppose you could produce a ring of timber posts and lintols in a slightly different way by having the uprights with a section of bough leading off them to place a cross lintol in!
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Sep 05, 2010, 14:54
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but things shoud be termed correctly as it can give the wrong impression. Fair enough, but you should take it up with EH and the rest. ;) Stub tenon it should be apparently, rather than a through tenon (according to Wikipedia....) The other amazing thing about their effort is that they fashioned the lintols and joints by pounding a rock twice as hard as granite with a ball of similar rock.....
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
Sep 05, 2010, 16:27
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nigelswift wrote: but things shoud be termed correctly as it can give the wrong impression. Fair enough, but you should take it up with EH and the rest. ;) Stub tenon it should be apparently, rather than a through tenon (according to Wikipedia....) The other amazing thing about their effort is that they fashioned the lintols and joints by pounding a rock twice as hard as granite with a ball of similar rock..... Yes I already said the true term was stub tenons Nigel but only at best!! A normal stud tenon would be the full width of the material use but only go into its matching partner a given distance. That actually would have been comparitively 'easy' to do compared to a full m&t but easier still is what they actually did which really amounts to a type of non-flexible ball and socket joint. Whatever we think about it you do have to admire them don't you! And yes, the pounding away to fashion the lintols to me shows that this was serious stuff and certainly no folly as has been suggested!!
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StoneGloves 1149 posts |
Sep 05, 2010, 16:34
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You can't have more evidence than a dirty great pyramid really - how can that be denied? Yet, it is ... Notice how my copper mine has been ignored (^). It's a good job it's independently recorded. And supported by a two piece stone mould for a looped spearhead, assumed to be Middle Bronze Age, and a hillside with Scots pine 'trash' (the useless offcuts) entrapped within the peat.
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
Sep 05, 2010, 16:38
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Sanctuary wrote: nigelswift wrote: but things shoud be termed correctly as it can give the wrong impression. Fair enough, but you should take it up with EH and the rest. ;) Stub tenon it should be apparently, rather than a through tenon (according to Wikipedia....) The other amazing thing about their effort is that they fashioned the lintols and joints by pounding a rock twice as hard as granite with a ball of similar rock..... Yes I already said the true term was stub tenons Nigel but only at best!! A normal stud tenon would be the full width of the material use but only go into its matching partner a given distance. That actually would have been comparitively 'easy' to do compared to a full m&t but easier still is what they actually did which really amounts to a type of non-flexible ball and socket joint. Whatever we think about it you do have to admire them don't you! And yes, the pounding away to fashion the lintols to me shows that this was serious stuff and certainly no folly as has been suggested!! I should mention that when I was in Egypt I visited the Temple of Dendera and was invited to look at where the 'caretaker' lived...up on the roof! The flat stone roof was contructed of massive stones some 6ft wide and around 20ft in length and at the ends were cut out open dovetail joints. So if you can imagine it when two stones were joined end to end it left an open double dovetail joint to which they amazingly crafted this huge locking dovetail piece which they then inserted. As I've said I am a chippy by profession but these guys make you blush with their precisionship because you couldn't slip a knife blade between the joints. You have to ask...how the hell did they do it?
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StoneGloves 1149 posts |
Sep 05, 2010, 16:44
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You have to ask...how the hell did they do it? Very carefully ... I have one of those stone hammers that were typically used to shape the so-called mortice and tenon joints at Stonehenge and - frankly - just the idea of shaping stones with one of them is just as amazing as moving the stones there in the first place. Skara brae huts had lintels, over the cupboards, and the old explanation for the inspiration behind the trilithons was Cretan influence. The axehead carvings were usually given as supporting evidence.
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Sep 05, 2010, 16:57
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I've often wondered if the joint was craftily chosen - to allow a bit of lateral "give" if (for instance) some additional weighting was placed on or against the lintols. In addition, rounded/tapered stub tenons might make it a lot easier to slot the whole ring together (allowing a degree of jiggling of the supporting uprights until everything fitted) - quite a consideration when you're trying to assemble a ring weighing scores of tons high in the air! After all, it might form a nice neat ring when laid on the ground but become a bit of a problem when you tried to erect it. It's the MFI flatpack syndrome.... I might be wrong about that but I haven't seen a queue of experimental archaeologists anxiously waiting to replicate that bit - even six inches off the ground!
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tiompan 5758 posts |
Sep 05, 2010, 17:05
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[quote="StoneGloves"]You can't have more evidence than a dirty great pyramid really - how can that be denied? Yet, it is ... /quote] It's pyramid shaped like a flatiron http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatirons which doesn't make it a man made pyramid . How many professional archaeologists and geologists consider it to be man made ? It's not much different from a bunch of crop circlers digging up the Sanctuary .http://www.johnbohannon.org/NewFiles/bosnia.pdf
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StoneGloves 1149 posts |
Sep 05, 2010, 17:11
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It's an altered hill. And then there's the tunnels inside it ...
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