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The Modern Antiquarian Forum » Digging for Britain tonight |
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Vicster 662 posts |
Aug 27, 2010, 08:29
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Sanctuary wrote: Re last night programme, I thought the explanation of the 'missing' Bronze-Age Chieftain's skelly in the cist at Forteviot rather odd. I'd never heard of body fluids breaking down a complete body and skelly before. Does anyone know of any other examples and proof that this actually happens? Had a long chat with an archaeologist whilst on Orkney who talked about this - the organic (human) remains in some cists being just "white stuff" but no idea how much evidence there is? That was deffo my fav bit though, when they showed the wobbly handheld film of them opening the cist and had to keep bleeeping out Kenny Brophy's swearing! He is such an enthusiast and a thoroughly nice chap. Spent a day with him a couple of years ago and we went to Cleaven Dyke and he was practically hopping around with excitement, trying to get us all an enthusastic about it as he is! My friend Vicky was at Forteviot when they opened the cist and said it was the most amazing day with an electric atmosphere.....v envious.
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tiompan 3169 posts |
Edited Aug 27, 2010, 16:27
Aug 27, 2010, 08:33
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Sanctuary wrote: Re last night programme, I thought the explanation of the 'missing' Bronze-Age Chieftain's skelly in the cist at Forteviot rather odd. I'd never heard of body fluids breaking down a complete body and skelly before. Does anyone know of any other examples and proof that this actually happens? In November last year it was considered that a dried type of adipocere was present , now it's a "kind of dry calcite like substance " attached to the side of the cist . There are some markings on the cap stone which were origianlly described as consisting of a spiral , footprint and an eye or an axe .The pic that was used to support this was taken from an oblique angle distorting hte motifs ,they were also considered to be unlike anything else in Britain .When looked at from the perspective of the engraver they turned out be a meander and a boss with similarities 30 miles away in Menteith and also in Northumberland I pointed this out to Kenny Brophy at the time but he refused to accept that , you don't hear much about the capstone these days , it has been been recorded using photogrammetry and lasers and the footprint ,spiral ,axe and eye are forgotten about . Regardless it's still a fine bit of rock art . Compare pics http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/9146/forteviot.html
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Sanctuary 1835 posts |
Aug 27, 2010, 09:16
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Vicster wrote: Sanctuary wrote: Re last night programme, I thought the explanation of the 'missing' Bronze-Age Chieftain's skelly in the cist at Forteviot rather odd. I'd never heard of body fluids breaking down a complete body and skelly before. Does anyone know of any other examples and proof that this actually happens? Had a long chat with an archaeologist whilst on Orkney who talked about this - the organic (human) remains in some cists being just "white stuff" but no idea how much evidence there is? That was deffo my fav bit though, when they showed the wobbly handheld film of them opening the cist and had to keep bleeeping out Kenny Brophy's swearing! He is such an enthusiast and a thoroughly nice chap. Spent a day with him a couple of years ago and we went to Cleaven Dyke and he was practically hopping around with excitement, trying to get us all an enthusastic about it as he is! My friend Vicky was at Forteviot when they opened the cist and said it was the most amazing day with an electric atmosphere.....v envious. I expected someone to shout out, 'Bugger, there's no skelly' but they didn't. That's the first thing I would have expected to see if the cist had not been disturbed and would have commented on it immediately. I'm wondering that if the capstone had shown signs of being removed at an earlier period if they would have just said that the skelly had been removed and put the 'white stuff' down to something else! I love enthusiastic archo's as they inject the thrill into a subject that for most people is literally as dry as dust!! Great TV people to have on board.
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toasted-whippet 77 posts |
Aug 27, 2010, 20:26
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Damn, missed most of the archeology, was distracted.......
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thesweetcheat 1728 posts |
Aug 27, 2010, 20:56
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Yes, me too, thought it was better than I anticipated actually. The finds were very good and I enjoyed the sweary Scottish home-video.
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Sanctuary 1835 posts |
Aug 30, 2010, 11:11
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Vicster wrote: Sanctuary wrote: Re last night programme, I thought the explanation of the 'missing' Bronze-Age Chieftain's skelly in the cist at Forteviot rather odd. I'd never heard of body fluids breaking down a complete body and skelly before. Does anyone know of any other examples and proof that this actually happens? Had a long chat with an archaeologist whilst on Orkney who talked about this - the organic (human) remains in some cists being just "white stuff" but no idea how much evidence there is? That was deffo my fav bit though, when they showed the wobbly handheld film of them opening the cist and had to keep bleeeping out Kenny Brophy's swearing! i've been checking out the possible scenario of how the body (bones and all) disappeared and here's the a possible route as described by a smart-arsed mate of mine!: Methanethiol (in body tissues) metabolised by bacteria to produce… Di-methyl sulphide…which reacts in atmosphere to produce….. Sulphur dioxide….which reacts with water to form… sulphurous acid….which reacts with oxygen to form…. Sulphuric acid….which reacts with calcium phosphate (bone) to form… Phosphoric acid and calcium sulphate…which is… Gypsum…which is…. What they found! At some point the grave must have been flooded which would facilitate the reactions and also deposit the calcium sulphate around the grave wall like a scum line.
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tiompan 3169 posts |
Aug 30, 2010, 13:41
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Sanctuary wrote: Gypsum…which is…. What they found! I'm not suggesting this was the case in this example but gypsum was often a component of Roman burials .
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Sanctuary 1835 posts |
Aug 30, 2010, 15:01
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tiompan wrote: Sanctuary wrote: Gypsum…which is…. What they found! I'm not suggesting this was the case in this example but gypsum was often a component of Roman burials . And here's something else I've dug up (no pun intended) Was thinking about the use of meadowsweet in that grave so looked into that. Meadowsweet was thought of as sacred plants and is often associated with death. The scent of it (it is said) can induce a deep sleep, which you may not wake from.... One of it's first known uses was as a natural painkiller, similar to willow it has an aspirin like effect... It's been used domestically to cover floors since it was reputed to mask unpleasant smells (including the dead and dying) - along with other uses. Brush past it apparently and it does have a very strongly sickly sweet smell - in fact it stinks :)
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tiompan 3169 posts |
Aug 30, 2010, 15:45
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Sanctuary wrote: tiompan wrote: Sanctuary wrote: Gypsum…which is…. What they found! I'm not suggesting this was the case in this example but gypsum was often a component of Roman burials . And here's something else I've dug up (no pun intended) Was thinking about the use of meadowsweet in that grave so looked into that. Meadowsweet was thought of as sacred plants and is often associated with death. The scent of it (it is said) can induce a deep sleep, which you may not wake from.... One of it's first known uses was as a natural painkiller, similar to willow it has an aspirin like effect... It's been used domestically to cover floors since it was reputed to mask unpleasant smells (including the dead and dying) - along with other uses. Brush past it apparently and it does have a very strongly sickly sweet smell - in fact it stinks :) I like the smell of meadow sweet . Yep there are quite a few ,usually (E).B.A. burials with the plant ,sometimes just masses of pollen . Even one just 25 miles south Forteviot .There was a suggestion years ago that it may have also been used to flavour drinks .
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goffik 3570 posts |
Aug 31, 2010, 19:36
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Dammit! I missed it an' all! Hopefully it's still on iPlayer. Sounds like a good 'un! :) G x
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