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Littlestone 5386 posts |
Edited May 23, 2010, 20:32
May 23, 2010, 17:40
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The very desire for monuments to remain undisturbed by any form of offering is an imposition of a particular value set onto others. I see where you're coming from when it's on a one-to-one basis and there's nothing else in the equation. But look at it this way: if just you and me are on the beach (a towel's throw away from each other) and you only want to listen to the waves and the seabirds, while I want to turn my radio up full blast, we're pretty much on an equal 'moral' footing. If there are three of us there then I guess it comes down to a democratic decision on what the majority want. However, the majority can be, and often are, wrong. If two out of the three opt for loud music when one of them knows it's damaging to everyone's hearing (or disturbing the seabirds) that too has to be taken into consideration. In other words, if everyone here says leaving organic matter or t-lights inside West Kennet Long Barrow is OK but one person says no, it's not OK, because the former attracts vermin and the later (through smoke and wax) damages the monument then that, surely, should be the winning argument?
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thesweetcheat 6210 posts |
May 23, 2010, 19:07
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Resonox wrote: I don't know...but surely hoarding something ravished from the earth can't have any beneficial qualities, either for the earth or the holder as it is in effect keeping "stolen" items and they are not complete as they have been shattered from a whole.Returning them as an "offering" might help towards the replenishing of the earth's fragile resources. Surely that's taking the argument a little far? The bricks that built my house were made from clay taken from the earth but I'm not planning on knocking it down and scattering the dust back over the fields. No doubt the laptop I'm typing this on has been made using the earth's resources. The fact is that we are a selfish, destructive species, but unless we're all going to revert back to a palaeolithic lifestyle, there's a limit to what we can do about it. Returning crystals to the earth (where? how?) doesn't seen particularly worthwhile.
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TheStandingStone 218 posts |
May 23, 2010, 20:18
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Well I'm in Ireland and rarely see offerings at sites. It does happen but not half as much as in the UK. The Catholic ethos is still so dominant to a certain extant that ancient sites are not held to be sacred. When I come over to the UK it's amazing how many things are left at sites and I do find it somewhat distracting. I find that to see a bunch of modern stuff at the ancient sites does take something away from them. While I cannot pretend to understand why people consider these places sacred since mostly all that we know about the religion of the people who built them is speculation, I can respect their beliefs - even if they must leave things at sites. Maybe at popular sites that attract a lot of offerings there should be a designated area, near to the monument, where people can leave offerings and light candles. Therefore, the monument itself is free of 'litter' and people can still leave things in the vicinity...
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tjj 3606 posts |
May 23, 2010, 20:32
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thesweetcheat wrote: Resonox wrote: I don't know...but surely hoarding something ravished from the earth can't have any beneficial qualities, either for the earth or the holder as it is in effect keeping "stolen" items and they are not complete as they have been shattered from a whole.Returning them as an "offering" might help towards the replenishing of the earth's fragile resources. Surely that's taking the argument a little far? The bricks that built my house were made from clay taken from the earth but I'm not planning on knocking it down and scattering the dust back over the fields. No doubt the laptop I'm typing this on has been made using the earth's resources. The fact is that we are a selfish, destructive species, but unless we're all going to revert back to a palaeolithic lifestyle, there's a limit to what we can do about it. Returning crystals to the earth (where? how?) doesn't seen particularly worthwhile. Succinctly put tsc, Resonox's post was directed at me I think but I chose not to answer it as the point I had been making was that instead of (metaphorically) 'shouting' at people who leave stuff at ancient sites we should educate them - which is what this forum does to a large extent. For example until relatively recently I didn't have a view about metal detecting - now I do. Likewise, a few years back I started a collection of crystals and became interested in their 'healing' qualities. Now I realise that to obtain something by depleting the earth's resources would mean the object in question couldn't possibly hold those qualities and it is just 'us' again projecting our own agenda's onto inanimate objects (as with offerings). As you rightly said though, there is no point in returning them to earth just for the sake of it - any more than returning gold, silver and other precious stones; it would be dug up in a couple of thousand years perhaps and end up in a museum.
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Littlestone 5386 posts |
Edited May 23, 2010, 21:16
May 23, 2010, 21:13
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Maybe at popular sites that attract a lot of offerings there should be a designated area, near to the monument, where people can leave offerings and light candles. Sounds like a possibility at 'supervised' sites like Stonehenge, though in practice how it would be enforced at other places is hard to see. There are loads of spots, in and around Avebury, for example, where people leave things but it's hard to see the majority of those people buying into a designated offering area. The very nature of some offerings suggests a degree of privacy (the scattering of ashes, personal thanks or invocations) and that ethos falls a long way outside the designated communal areas that the Church provides for example.
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Alfrede 5 posts |
May 23, 2010, 21:29
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Interesting to read through the comments on this topic. Some of the responses are pretty predictable (thou shalt not ... etc.) from those unable to comprehend any deeper aspects involved. Others show a broader tolerance and wisdom that i find heartening. The most ironic comments are from those who reveal an open distaste for any sign of human interaction or ongoing ritual activity at these ancient ritual sites. Instead wanting them kept looking a certain way to fit their own personal view of them. This I find bizarre. The tone of their comments usually reveal the deeper prejudices lurking behind their argument, - that other peoples personal offerings and tokens, are ‘offensive’ and the constant reference to these items as 'rubbish' 'crap' 'tat' and ‘detritus’ in order to devalue and obscure their intended purpose. A very cheap ploy to justify their negative views on ‘those sort of people’ who ‘dump’ this stuff. Quite unpleasant really. With regard to the original post, after many years and much reflection, my own approach is that i would not touch or remove anything that looks like an offering or token left by another person - whatever my personal feelings towards the object. Simply, i do not consider i have the right to interfere. Especially not knowing the motivation behind such an offering. Tut tut ... Another site where ‘those sort’ of people have tied rags to a tree, In the belief that it might help them recover from an illness. http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/6458/clootie_well.html get sharpening those axes. I do still wonder what happened to the offending pottery cow left in the field at long Meg circle? Alfrede
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
May 23, 2010, 21:42
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"my own approach is that i would not touch or remove anything that looks like an offering or token left by another person - whatever my personal feelings towards the object. Simply, i do not consider i have the right to interfere" .... except with sites.
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thesweetcheat 6210 posts |
May 23, 2010, 22:04
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nigelswift wrote: "my own approach is that i would not touch or remove anything that looks like an offering or token left by another person - whatever my personal feelings towards the object. Simply, i do not consider i have the right to interfere" .... except with sites. And, taken to its conclusion, in a few decades we will have some amazing new cairns built over the sites of prehistoric monuments, made out of pottery cows, plastic toys and beer cans. The archaeologists of the future will no doubt be amazed.
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MisteryWaters 9 posts |
May 24, 2010, 03:22
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Alfrede wrote: hmmmm - Preaching indeed. If you ever go to another part of the world, like India for example - would you take a bin bag and tidy up all the 'rubbish' offerings at their sacred sites too. Or maybe thats different? not 'British'? Traditionally, in India, it is food that is offered to the Gods. This is of course 'biodegradable'. If all offerings were of 'biodegradable' natural material there would not be a problem with litter louts.
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Resonox 604 posts |
May 24, 2010, 07:10
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tjj wrote: thesweetcheat wrote: Resonox wrote: I don't know...but surely hoarding something ravished from the earth can't have any beneficial qualities, either for the earth or the holder as it is in effect keeping "stolen" items and they are not complete as they have been shattered from a whole.Returning them as an "offering" might help towards the replenishing of the earth's fragile resources. Surely that's taking the argument a little far? The bricks that built my house were made from clay taken from the earth but I'm not planning on knocking it down and scattering the dust back over the fields. No doubt the laptop I'm typing this on has been made using the earth's resources. The fact is that we are a selfish, destructive species, but unless we're all going to revert back to a palaeolithic lifestyle, there's a limit to what we can do about it. Returning crystals to the earth (where? how?) doesn't seen particularly worthwhile. Succinctly put tsc, Resonox's post was directed at me I quite agree with the point made about the probable futility of returning a precious commodity to back to the earth it was stolen from..where do you begin...but when asked what good it would do,I did begin my post with the line(totally ignored)"I Don't Know!"....I was not aiming the post at any one person(or even any collective group) as I didn't raise the subject of crystals being raped from the earth,but if it's OK to leave a pottery cow or bunch of plastic flowers at a site designated sacred (by whom ..might I politely ask??) as a votive offering to the earth,why is it wrong to do the same with crystals?Oh right...they'll end up in a museum in the future..whereas if you keep them they will be put to good healing use or just be an aesthetic centre of attraction on your mantlepiece. As to their healing properties...surely if the crystals have been taken with such force their energy lines will have been disrupted ,if not shattered.It's like saying you can cut off a healer's hand and keep it because it has properties beneficial to your well-being... Please tjj, don't try to make yourself a martyr by misquoting or misusing my posts,it isn't very becoming, after all I asked a question open to all to respond to and didn't post a diatribe, if it read like that, it is my fault entirely,but a simple PM instead of taking stewardship of my words rearranging and displaying them as you would your collection of crystals, would have sufficed.... Ms Green,whom I read up on after your post, also warns of this behaviour in one of her books, any ill-will you direct at me or prestige you try to gain at my expense, by pointing out my errors and flaws as a knowledge seeking being will be returned(and multiplied)to you by dint of natural law. I do hope that this really isn't the case as I'm sure you just misinterpreted my words, and weren't intending to misuse my post at all. Didn't mean to wander so much off topic and wouldn't even have responded except that I was specifically named as a poster who deliberately targeted another.
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