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Tidying up offerings
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tomwatts
376 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
May 22, 2010, 03:24
Maybe the tree will grow back stronger.
goffik
goffik
3926 posts

Re: Sort it out for gawd's sake
May 22, 2010, 11:57
Or a different approach could be along the lines of "Please take all your rubbish with you, and if you MUST leave something, then here are some suggestions...". Or maybe not.

A mate of mine - a Pagan - used to pour a bit of ale on the ground and mutter a few words as an offering. Apart from my belief that you shouldn't waste ale, I thought it the least intrusive of offerings!

G x
nigelswift
8112 posts

Re: Sort it out for gawd's sake
May 22, 2010, 13:49
"Apart from my belief that you shouldn't waste ale"

You've hit an important point Goff - ale's precious so offering it involves a real sacrifice whereas tat....

It's one thing defending someone's right to do something that involves a real effort or sacrifice, it's another being asked to respect their right to leave a bit of useless plastic!
indiagold
1 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
May 22, 2010, 13:53
well i think many of you have made your points for and against this practice. However on a lighter note, does anyone know what happened to the farmer who cut the tree down? (in folklore as you probably know, it can bring bad fortune to cut down a fairy thorn or sceach).
As my superstitious and mischievous Irish grandfather would say with a twinkle in his eye:
Is he still alive then?
Rhiannon
5290 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
May 22, 2010, 13:53
"It was a farmer's arrogance and ignorance that led to a tree being chopped down."

Surely the people who left all the tat (and those who don't leave any tat) are only able to visit the place at all, which is on his land, where he's looking after it one assumes - because of his good will.

Surely it's the presumptiousness and arrogance of the tat / offering - leavers who led to the situation where he felt the only control he had left was to cut the tree down.

And I speak as someone who thinks the fairies will be more than a tad unimpressed at the cutting down of thorn trees. Probably.
Branwen
824 posts

Edited May 22, 2010, 17:20
Re: Tidying up offerings
May 22, 2010, 17:17
I've given an opinion when this topic came up before I think, so I won't go into again.

Since that time though I've seen a new thing. I don't know if it happens elsewhere, but in a few places in Scotland now I've seen charity shops with "cloutie trees" in their windows. Usually made out of a large bundle of branches in a large jar/jug. Tied to the branches are little pieces of card with the wish of the person who made a small donation to have the cards tied to the tree. Custom-wise, an offering of silver had been made, and the wish expressed, and in some cases the card was tied to the tree with a strip of cloth from the sick person. I imagine people who wished for a relative sick with cancer placed their cloutie and donation with a cancer charity - and likewise for other illnesses.

The only aspect of the custom which isn't fulfilled this way is the one being ignored anyway - by those leaving material that is never going to decompose at least. Namely that your wish comes true as the item you left is destroyed by the elements. (Always assuming it isn't the help of the little people you are propitiating - which custom dictates is not a "possession" which will only invoke complete freedom from your wishes). The added benefit of donating to a charity working to cure ailments probably makes up for the missing element in the ritual, though.

I've always thought telling people to stop following their beliefs is a waste of time, and you'de get further teaching them that following it badly negates the whole purpose of the exercise instead.
faerygirl
412 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
May 22, 2010, 19:48
Mustard wrote:
Littlestone wrote:

And until we all agree on that it might, perhaps, be best to see sites (within our own cultural tradition*) as being 'ours' only while we are there. In other words, apart from having a duty to be respectful to others who may be visiting a site at the same time as ourselves, we shouldn't deposit anything there that might offend those who follow (or anything that might damage the site) and we shouldn't take any material features (however small) away from a site when we leave.

I really struggle with this issue. On the one hand, I detest seeing sites littered with plastic crap, but on the other hand, we'd have no stone circles if our ancestors had adopted this philosophy and left woods and glades undisturbed. However much we debate the philosophy, I think most of it comes down to a degree of common sense, which most reasonable people should be able to agree on.

One other point (unrelated to the quoted post). I don't feel comfortable seeing references to "pagans" as a generic group. It's such a loose term that it's almost meaningless.


Similarly the suggestion that its all "New Age" folk making a mess. I would say lots of the things I have seen resemble the things people leave EVERYWHERE; streets, forests, beaches etc are all littered with receipts, plastic and beer cans. The beer cans shoved onto the trees around Avebury are not offerings, just the rubbish left by idiots.

I also saw two middle aged women fishing around in their bags at Avebury and coming up with a bit of nylon cord to attach to a tree. I think the coloured ribbons and chimes people leave in some places look beautiful and make a place feel nice, but when it begins to be any old rubbish/ shoelace/ cord/ plastic bag that people have to hand you start to wonder where the limits are. If you are serious about it as an offering then it wont be a ceramic cow and a beer can! But a bundle of lavender tied with ribbon has an altogether different effect.

Maybe not everyone has the forethought to get a little engraved pebble but it doesnt mean its any less important. Everything offends someone, guess we all just have to do our bit to pick up the things that are obviously litter but have some respect for other things. I say that in reference to the entire country (and even world) and not just stone circles

x
nigelswift
8112 posts

Edited May 23, 2010, 06:05
Re: Tidying up offerings
May 23, 2010, 05:18
"Everything offends someone"

Indeed. So why leave anything?

Littlestone has it right I reckon, you should only "own" the monument for as long as you're there. That's the perfect compromise, surely? And it provides an adequate answer to Alfrede's question:

"I would be interested to hear who gives you the authority to decide another human beings personal offerings are 'detritus' and 'rubbish'?"

Alfrede, it's a personal offering while you're there but it's unappreciated detritus after you've gone!
goffik
goffik
3926 posts

Re: Sort it out for gawd's sake
May 23, 2010, 07:35
Precisely! Tying bits of crisp packets to a tree, or dumping a plastic toy, empty bottle or broken mug is far from sensitive to the site. And if it's just some old crap you don't want any more, it's hardly a sacrifice.

The last few times I've been to wells with popular cloutie trees have resulted in carrier bags being filled with cack to dispose of sensibly. I know cloutie trees do actually have a history and tradition, which has been talked about many times before, but people don't actually seem to realise why they're tying things to the tree! Empty sanitary towel packaging, crisp packets, condoms and doll's heads don't, from the many books I've read on wells and their folklore, quite fit with the respectful and reverential purpose the offerings were originally intended.

I believe it's been discussed here previously, also, that leaving offerings at megalithic sites is apparently a relatively recent thing.

A topic that came out of this some way back was when some utter numbskull was burying crystals at ancient sites in the belief he was saving the world, or somesuch nonsense. He couldn't see what was wrong wit it. One person's reasonable behaviour is another person's brainless idiocy.

I, personally, don't have a problem with the leaving of offerings per se (straw dollies and other biodegradeable offerings with some thought attached can be quite a pleasant addition, on some occasions!) but then any sane, sensible and courteous person would know what was reasonable, wouldn't they?

G x
Mustard
1043 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
May 23, 2010, 15:18
nigelswift wrote:

Littlestone has it right I reckon, you should only "own" the monument for as long as you're there. That's the perfect compromise, surely?

The very desire for monuments to remain undisturbed by any form of offering is an imposition of a particular value set onto others. Saying "adopt my value set and appreciate a site in the way that I consider acceptable" is no compromise at all.

Again, I don't say this as a fan of offerings - never felt the desire to leave anything myself - but it's just not as clear-cut as you imply.
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