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The Modern Antiquarian Forum » Ancient Irish Serpent Faith and St Patrick |
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drewbhoy 1754 posts |
Apr 13, 2010, 01:19
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Hello Branwen, hope you are doing very well. What book(s) do you suggest. This isn't for me but a Slovakian friend so nothing to heavy please. Hope the job is doin fine!
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drewbhoy 1754 posts |
Apr 13, 2010, 01:21
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Cheers Tjj, I've an Irish heritage as well as my surname indicates. (All rather rebellious tho!)
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Branwen 824 posts |
Edited Apr 13, 2010, 11:33
Apr 13, 2010, 11:24
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Yeah, work is in fits and bursts. Better weather has me out more in general though. Went up to Pitlochry twice, both times the weather turned foul but I found a few places that are suitable there, and in Inverness too, which is as far north as I'll be going with groups this year. Found a couple of places on Skye and booked them right away cos they were all getting booked so far in advance there. Also found a nice place to stay for Kilmartin area on that trip too, coming back from Skye via a night in Oban then the long way orund to Inveraray, so summer is looking good. My posting here will be sporadic I guess, apologies in advance if I miss answering anyone. Nothing wrong with tjj's suggestion I would say. I haven't read it but if it has gathered all the stuff I've read elsewhere together in one place it sounds perfect. Crom Ruadh, Crom Dubh, Crom Cruach of the stone on the plains of Mag Slecht (eek - my mother's family are irish travellers and that Crom story is creepy) - the good the bad and the ugly... Actually, any serpent with Crom or Croman in it's name was supposedly the bad kind, cos Crom means crooked and The Crooked One is a bit like saying The Satanic One. But you can't be sure it's not a nasty appellation added by spooked out christians (well except in the case of Crom Cruach - he was one bad ancient pagan god by anyone's standards). I take it the books he wants are for Ireland. I can't think offhand of books that cover the serpent faith in Scotland... I don't think it's been done in the same way. Just bits and pieces in lots of books. I remember something that might just be a chapter name about the dragon beliefs in Scotland but I remember being disappointed in its lack of scope. It covered Nessie and the serpent that attached Fraoch was all, if I remember rightly.
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tjj 1763 posts |
Edited Apr 13, 2010, 17:10
Apr 13, 2010, 16:35
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I thought maybe some would find this extract of interest - from the James Bonwick book mentioned earlier. This extract is excluded from the on-line review link. Scotland, as the author of its Scultured Stones shows, furnished a number of illustrations of the like of Dracolatria. Among the score of megalithic-serpent Scotch (Scottish) monuments some have crosses as well. There is, also, the well-known earthen serpent at Glen Feochan, Loch Nell, near Oban, in view of the triple cone of Ben Cruachan being 300 feet long and 20 high. Professor Blackie noted it thus :- “Why lies the mighty serpent here, Let him who knoweth tell; With its head to the land, and its huge tail near The shore of the fair Loch Nell? Why lies it here? Not here alone – But far to the East and West; The wonder-working snake is known, A mighty god, confessed. And here the mighty god was known In Europe’s early morn; In view of Cruachan’s triple cone, Before John Bull was born. And worship knew, on Celtic ground With trumpets, drums, and bugles; Before a trace in Lorn was found Of Campbells and Macdougalls. And here the serpent lies in pride, His hoary tale to tell; And rears his mighty head beside The shore of fair Loch Nell.” Visitors to Argyllshire and to Ireland cannot fail to recognise this old-time symbol. The mound on the Clyde in Argyllshire is the head remains of a serpent earthwork. A lithic temple in serpentine form is seen west of Bute. Some connect the cup and disc superstition with this worship. Given the book was first published in 1894, I found the last sentence intriguing.
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Branwen 824 posts |
Edited Apr 13, 2010, 18:13
Apr 13, 2010, 17:38
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Interesting yeah. You do get some way ahead of their time. Regarding Bonwick I have a link to an unabridged version of something similar. Title is different but part II has a chapter on serpent worship that has that poem:- Irish Druids And Old Irish Religions by James Bonwick [1894] http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/idr/index.htm I have a list of chapters about Scottish serpent worship that goes into it a bit more somewhere - not just the gaelic stuff but pictish stuff like Nethy of Abernethy etc... I'll dig it out when I'm on my other computer. Some of those connect the pictish tuning fork symbol with that serpent god. Of course Phillip Gardiner has done a lot of work on serpent faiths around the world. He's put a lot of time and effort into it though his conclusions can get a bit "out there" at times. He wrote the Serpent Grail which at least starts from the proper, earliest, non-christianised grail, as a cup of serpent blood used in the procession of the nine maidens when they raise up a king. This is along with an emerald stone on a pillow which he postulates is a pill made from serpent venom. Serpent blood and venom both having properties similar to modern cancer and heart medications - dunno the truth of that but his wife was a doctor I think and he says thats the case. So a connection to the nine maiden serpent cult's ability to give a king a healthy reign. Anyway - Here's what he wrote about celtic serpent faith online The Serpent Code The Tale of Serpent Worship in Ireland and Christianity's Role in its Destruction by Philip Gardiner http://www.newconnexion.net/articles/index.cfm/2005/11/serpent_code.html Ooh and didnt they also push back man's earliest date of attaining spirituality a few years ago in africa with an underground stone snake inset with votive recepticles? Sorry, you can't be a scottish wells and springs nut without being a serpent worship nut too - I'll shut up now before I get cut off, though I can't see you getting anally retentive about your thread, somehow, tjj....
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drewbhoy 1754 posts |
Apr 13, 2010, 19:29
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Cheers Branwen, she's also interested in the myths and legends of Loch Ness and related subjects. But I'm ok with that topic. Bonwick it is, found some other stuff as well so that should keep her happy!
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juamei 1557 posts |
Apr 13, 2010, 19:51
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Branwen wrote: Ooh and didnt they also push back man's earliest date of attaining spirituality a few years ago in africa with an underground stone snake inset with votive recepticles? The things you learn! 70000 years old (or at least the finds deposited with it are). http://www.world-science.net/othernews/061130_python.htm
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Branwen 824 posts |
Edited Apr 13, 2010, 20:07
Apr 13, 2010, 20:03
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Don't forget to tell her the story of the Cailleach and Nessie. And that 8th century pictish stone with a pleistosaur(sp?) on it.
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Branwen 824 posts |
Apr 13, 2010, 20:04
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Thats the one Juamei!
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tjj 1763 posts |
Edited Apr 14, 2010, 07:40
Apr 13, 2010, 21:16
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Branwen wrote: Interesting yeah. You do get some way ahead of their time. Regarding Bonwick I have a link to an unabridged version of something similar. Title is different but part II has a chapter on serpent worship that has that poem:- Irish Druids And Old Irish Religions by James Bonwick [1894] http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/idr/index.htm I have a list of chapters about Scottish serpent worship that goes into it a bit more somewhere - not just the gaelic stuff but pictish stuff like Nethy of Abernethy etc... I'll dig it out when I'm on my other computer. Some of those connect the pictish tuning fork symbol with that serpent god. Of course Phillip Gardiner has done a lot of work on serpent faiths around the world. He's put a lot of time and effort into it though his conclusions can get a bit "out there" at times. He wrote the Serpent Grail which at least starts from the proper, earliest, non-christianised grail, as a cup of serpent blood used in the procession of the nine maidens when they raise up a king. This is along with an emerald stone on a pillow which he postulates is a pill made from serpent venom. Serpent blood and venom both having properties similar to modern cancer and heart medications - dunno the truth of that but his wife was a doctor I think and he says thats the case. So a connection to the nine maiden serpent cult's ability to give a king a healthy reign. Anyway - Here's what he wrote about celtic serpent faith online The Serpent Code The Tale of Serpent Worship in Ireland and Christianity's Role in its Destruction by Philip Gardiner http://www.newconnexion.net/articles/index.cfm/2005/11/serpent_code.html Ooh and didnt they also push back man's earliest date of attaining spirituality a few years ago in africa with an underground stone snake inset with votive recepticles? Sorry, you can't be a scottish wells and springs nut without being a serpent worship nut too - I'll shut up now before I get cut off, though I can't see you getting anally retentive about your thread, somehow, tjj.... Hehehe, anally retentive, me? Heavens above! Just read your link to Philip Gardiner, Branwen, his Serpent Grail book looks interesting - I have his book The Shining Ones which I recall taking with me on a Scottish trip three years ago. I have just been told by someone who knows, that Loch Nell is 'a perfectly natural esker'. Oh well! Its good to talk. Thanks for all the info Branwen.
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