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Littlestone
Littlestone
5386 posts

Re: Circles under churches
Aug 18, 2005, 10:33
>...they wanted hard stones as foundation rubble and these were stones in the vicinity ?<

Doubt it VBB. Take a look at the stone at the corner of Pewsey Church - http://www.liminae.co.uk/pages/england_wiltshire_pewsey_church.htm - it's a real beauty (smooth reddish surface) and a recumbent SS if ever I saw one. If it was just used as foundation rubble why leave it undressed and protruding in such a way when it would have been quite easy to cut and neatly incorporate it into the church foundations proper.

A second stone under the third buttress from the corner is also visible.
nigelswift
8112 posts

Re: Circles under churches
Aug 18, 2005, 10:51
Gosh Littlestone, that's a really wierd picture. No way are those stones acting as the main support. The foundations, if any, will be continuous and quite deep. Those stones will have been inserted subsequently, for decorative or whatever reasons.
By a dotty Victorian antiquarian vicar maybe?
nigelswift
8112 posts

Re: Circles under churches
Aug 18, 2005, 11:12
.... and actually, the stones are under the buttresses which aren't carrying the main load and are possible non structural/decorative (any sign of bowing to the original wall) and definitely subsequent I'd have thought.
PeterH
PeterH
1180 posts

Re: Circles under churches
Aug 18, 2005, 12:09
Most impressive are the stones at Chesham in Bucks..Ocifant sent me some photos showing that the stones are beneath the quoins. Elsewhere though such as at Broomfield in Essex, a large puddingstone has been laid horizontally. It is partly inside the church and partly outside, SUSPENDED about a foot from the ground and protruding about two feet from the exterior wall. Either the ground level has since been lowered or it was set into the wall with no supporting function whatsoever.
nigelswift
8112 posts

Re: Circles under churches
Aug 18, 2005, 12:14
It's a bit (unintentionally?) symbolic isn't it?
Of all the places to put them - supporting the very supports of the church!
VenerableBottyBurp
675 posts

Re: Circles under churches
Aug 18, 2005, 13:58
"does it happen with equal frequency at secular buildings?"

How many secular buildings had foundations between 900 and 1650 ?

Windsor Castle has sarsen in its foundations !

VBB
VenerableBottyBurp
675 posts

Re: Circles under churches
Aug 18, 2005, 14:00
That's not QUOIT right !

Sarsens make terrible corners, they are oK undressed in foundations, but most sarsen cottages have brick corners and window cills.

VBB
VenerableBottyBurp
675 posts

Re: Circles under churches
Aug 18, 2005, 14:05
This is a decidely poor answer, but when I was a kid I thought those stones were additions. I thought there was a run-off behind that church that made ice on the corners and the stones were added to block the run.

I shall go back and have an adult look.

VBB
PeterH
PeterH
1180 posts

Re: Circles under churches
Aug 18, 2005, 14:23
But the stone at Broomfield doesn't support anything. It's in the wall, off the ground and protruding inside and outside. Now that really is "liminal"
Littlestone
Littlestone
5386 posts

Re: Circles under churches
Aug 19, 2005, 00:14
>No way are those stones acting as the main support.<

You're quite right Nigel, and if you take another look at http://www.liminae.co.uk/pages/england_wiltshire_pewsey_church.htm you'll see how the bottom-most stone of the corner buttress has been cut so that it appears to be holding or growing from the sarsen. I think there's little doubt that this is a symbolic statement by the Church rather than a structural necessity or the whim of an eccentric Victorian clergyman (especially as there's evidence of sarsens being placed in a similar way at other churches in the area). And not only within the Avebury area but further afield as well (for example Peter's observation that the practice also appears at Broomfield in Essex, where, "...a large pudding stone... is partly inside the church and partly outside, SUSPENDED about a foot from the ground and protruding about two feet from the exterior wall."

The pivotal question is, "Is this deliberate placing of stones in the foundations of churches an attempt by the Church to demonstrate <i>dominance</i> over an earlier belief system or an attempt by the Church to incorporate that earlier belief system into Christianity? I'd opt for the latter and, if correct, it's perhaps safe to assume a far greater continuity of pre-Christian traditions at these places than we may have hitherto imagined.
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