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Littlestone 5386 posts |
May 11, 2005, 14:16
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Yours will be better :-)
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
May 11, 2005, 14:27
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Bacon: A little learning is a dangerous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring...
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Littlestone 5386 posts |
May 11, 2005, 15:44
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"For all knowledge and wonder (which is the seed of knowledge) is an impression of pleasure in itself." :-)
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FourWinds 10943 posts |
May 12, 2005, 09:28
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>> There are surviving long bows - even one from the Neolithic ( Handbook of British Archaeology - L and R Adkins) None of which are yew >> Confusion is probably arising from the term "English Yew" - there is no such thing. Granted, but it's easier to say 'British yew' to indicate the form commonly encountered in GB. Different species dominate Europe and Ireland for instance and I can't be arsed to use the Latin name for each one each time. >> Leaving aside the Irish Yew which is a female form of the common yew, but with a more erect growth described >> as "bland and fastigate".. Far too young to be used for any kind of longbow except modern repros. I never said the 'Irish Yew' was used for bows - I just mentioned the difference between the form here and that usually found in GB. The majority of yew staves were imported from Germany, I believe. Oldest yew in Ireland is said to be around 800 years old and was presumably nurtured by the Norman monks. However, it's very hard to use trees as any form of evidence in Ireland. This is because during the Potato Famine something like 98% of trees and hedge rows in Ireland were cut down. The bulk of the ones that survived were in the Demesnes (grounds of stately homes), where they used to employ people just to protect the trees in their arboretums (sp?), kinda like tree wardens instead of game wardens. The amount of trees you had was a bit of a status symbol amongst the aristos in the 1850s.
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PeterH 1180 posts |
May 12, 2005, 13:06
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I'm not a medievalist, but I understand that most longbows were made from elm. Nothing further to add to what I have said already on species of yew - in Britain, Ireland, Europe, N.Africa and Asia Minor its the same one - Latin tag or not. I have not said that elm was not imported, I merely state that the yew that was growing in those countries which could export to Britain is EXACTLY the same species of tree that was growing in Britain. So if "English" yew was brittle and unsuitable for bows, so was the imported yew because its exactly the same. Only variation would be that caused by climate and soil condition affecting growth. Interesting topic, and I have learned a lot and having considered all opinions I have changed my view on churchyard yews. Experts often disagree and I have quoted the expertise of the authors of "Flora Britannica, but then I consulted Oliver Rackham who is probably the greatest authority on trees and the countryside. Warning! Nigel - you aren't going to like this. Firstly he confirms the Cheshire place name survey "Thorn and ash are the commonest trees in English placenames (also Welsh and Cornish)...but yew is apparently ABSENT.." On churchyard yews:- "People believe that yews are very slow-growing and that the big ones are of fabulous antiquity - 2,000 years or more. They are supposed to have been sacred trees before the churches were built. As far as I know, however, there is nothing to connect yews with any of the pagan religions of Britain, though there may be a connection with early Christianity. The theory that churches were built on pagan sacred sites has received disappointingly little support from excavation. If yews were a feature of early churches, why are there no place-names such as Yewchurch? Yew can grow quite fast when young and the ages may be exaggerated. A big yew can well be as old as the present church, but is unlikely to be older than its Anglo-Saxon predecessor. (Yews were not grown for longbows, which were normally of elm or imported yew.)" My opinion now? I mostly agree with Rackham. Even the oldest yews would have been saplings before Christianity - not the wonderfull weird and contorted beauties that we see today. The red berries and resurrection elements are most likely Christian. Ancient trees are very common in the British landscape and almost absent from Europe until you get to Greece. We do like our old trees and I wonder if this is not an Anglo-Saxon/Norse thing - Irminsul, Yggdrasil and all that? Oak, ash and thorn are the real pagan trees of British myth and legend aren't they? Anyone know of any really genuine old folktales about yews and yew magic ? (apart from the Greek and Roman ones)
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
May 12, 2005, 13:40
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The reason I quoted 2800 for the Yew next to my village church is that inside the church they have a certificate from some tree association or other certifying it's "not less than" that age and signed by David Bellamy. I presume there are a lot of such certificates. IF that's right I'd say the tree is looking chipper and is likely to last quite a while longer yet. I did some looking around a while back and there seemed to be an awful lot of definite bronze age site/yew tree connections, irrespective of churches. Life's too short to make it worth me doing the research again though (or, "can't be arsed" as we say in Stourport!...)
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PeterH 1180 posts |
May 12, 2005, 13:48
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Yes - the dating will always be problematic as the centres have gone. Experts will differ and none can claim proof. End of the day - we can choose to believe what we want to believe. Flogged this one to death haven't we? How did longbows come in to the discussion anyway?
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moss 2897 posts |
May 12, 2005, 16:32
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Can I have the last word..It is mentioned in Britain B.C.(Pryor) He states that neolithic yew bows were found in the Somerset levels. One bow was found at Meare Heath which could shoot an arrow over a 100 metres (its length 1.90.m), beautifully reinforced and decorated with elaborate criss cross leather bindings - they had style in those days.. and for an early irish tale, turning to Ross. A sad story about the death of two lovers, Baile and Aillin, a yew tree is described as growing from one grave and an apple tree from the other, "and the form of the heads of the lovers appeared in the top of the trees." She also goes on to say that (and here I do not necessarily believe her as she takes her sources from elsewhere) but; the sacred tree of of Mugna was a yew, Eo Mugna, according to the myth it bore three kinds of fruit, the acorn,apple and nut. Not trying to prove anything its just that trees, like stones, have always had magical properties, and I expect the yew tree was also part of the practical and ritual side of much earlier people..
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PeterH 1180 posts |
May 12, 2005, 17:27
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Moss said "Can I have the last word..It is mentioned in Britain B.C.(Pryor) He states that neolithic yew bows were found in the Somerset levels." Hooray! Neolithic yew bows do still exist! You can certainly have the last word as far as I'm concerned, Moss. Thanks.
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FourWinds 10943 posts |
May 12, 2005, 18:21
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It's great to hear that they have been found. That's certainly something I don't mind being enlightened about. I could get pedantic and say that those Neolthic ones wouldn't be long bows as we were talking about them, but life's too short :-)
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