|
The Modern Antiquarian Forum » Arbor Low » What Is It?? |
Log In to post a reply
|
|
|
|
| Topic View: Flat | Threaded | |
|
BrigantesNation 1733 posts |
Jul 02, 2004, 09:47
|
||
|
I'd suggest the size of the workforce is to a certain extent irrelevent - in so much as if it was an workforce or a number of individuals the sheer number of people involved does not necesarily indicate that it was a managed workforce - this is an assumption based largely on modern ideas of trade and commerce. For example, if these axes were the equivalent of million pound sports cars, where and what was the reciprical trade? It could not have been food since a single axe would have provided a years supply of food. I'm very dubious about it being flint, since this is available closer to Cumbria than the east yorkshire coast so what was being traded? Coming back to the size of the workforce there is another problem - the numbers we are talking about is starting to make up a significant proportion of the population estimates for the country (though I know how variable these can be) the last estimate I saw was for EBA and it worked out at 340k peeps in the UK - I'd suggest based on this the pop of Cumbria could not have been more than 25k - this throws questions over the manpower estimates at the axe factories does it not? So, how did they calculate the manpower? Is this based on full axe production or just blanks. |
|||
fitzcoraldo 2706 posts |
Jul 02, 2004, 10:05
|
||
|
I think your being a bit harsh on Mr Burl. The theories about the axe trade are the 'best fit' we have based on solid evidence and field work. You ask for evidence - hit the books fella, it's all there. I'll scratch the surface for you. Scandanavian, Alpine, and Breton axes are found around Britain. Large concentrations of axes from the Lizard (group I) found in Suffolk, the greatest concentration of Langdale axes (group VI) occur most commonly in Lincolnshire and the East Midlands, Group VII axes from North Wales are found in Kent, to name just three examples. I dunno about huge axe markets but there is plenty of evidence of the passing of good amounts of axes between communities, which implies trade. People were travelling the length and bredth of Britain and Ireland seeking axes, these were people who had access to local stone that would have done the job just as well but they chose to undertake journeys to aquire 'exotic' axes for some reason. Many of the finest axes had no practical use whatsoever and have been found deposted in burial monuments, henges and other ritual settings. No lay-line-ologies there just years of solid fieldwork & research.
|
|||
|
fitzcoraldo 2706 posts |
Jul 02, 2004, 10:23
|
||
|
It was you raised the issue of the size of the workforce. I just pointed out that there was an industrial process taking place. I would have thought that the abundance of Langdale axes found on the east coast implies some degree of management of the production & distribution of the axes. Why couldn't axes be traded for food? I'll give you 5 axes for a pig. You can then take those axes back to yorkshire and knock them out for a pig a piece. I don't understand your statement "It could not have been food since a single axe would have provided a years supply of food. I'm very dubious about it being flint, since this is available closer to Cumbria than the east yorkshire coast so what was being traded?" James Cherry's 1989 fieldwalking study in the Eastern Cumbrian Fells showed that the raw flint in the study area was imported from East Yorkshire ( drop me a line & I'll send you a copy). |
|||
|
fitzcoraldo 2706 posts |
Jul 02, 2004, 10:42
|
||
|
"Some axes are definitely ornamental, but these probably date to a time when axes were becoming obsolete, just as ornamental swords tend to date to times when swords were on the way out as a weapon". "the deposition of axes as part of grave-good assemblages, as at Caherguillamore, Co Limerick, and the deliberate inclusion of axes as part of the blocking up of sites, as at the court tomb known as Dooey's Cairn, Ballymacaldrack, Co. Antrim. The cache of axes at Ferriters Cove, Co Kerry, indicates that complex ideas surrounding the use of axes may have pre-dated the formal beginning of the Neolithic". Gabriel Cooney.
|
|||
|
fitzcoraldo 2706 posts |
Jul 02, 2004, 12:10
|
||
|
for faking - read flaking for 75000 a year - read 75000 doh!
|
|||
|
fitzcoraldo 2706 posts |
Jul 02, 2004, 14:06
|
||
|
"The special fine-grained stone used to make the Langdale axes doesn't only outcrop at that remote spot, but nonetheless, that was the place selected. In simple, practicle terms, it doesn't make sense - any more than it makes sense to transport huge bluestone rocks from the Preseli Hills of South Wales to Stonehenge; but that's what happened. Strangely, there is a link between the two places: they are both high and remote, with spectacular views, but more than that, the rock itself is sharp, angular, strangely columnar and most artificial in appearance. It would not take an overactive imagination to see these rocky outcrops as something removed from this world, perhaps assembled or created by a race altogether more powerful beings than us". Francis Pryor Britain BC
|
|||
|
BrigantesNation 1733 posts |
Jul 02, 2004, 15:18
|
||
|
Yes, this is where I'm coming from in terms of the non-trade argument. It seems the location itself was as important as the axe, possibly more so (esp. if the same rock can be found elsewhere). I know that this can still be turned on it's head - amount we pay for real champagne versus other sparkling wines for example. The distribution of axes does not lend itself to a classic ecomonic model - most being found at greatest distance from the source, the source being in a particularly remote and difficult location whilst alternative sources exist but apparently went unused. It may be that it was all part of the ritual - the source, the journey, it's final destination. That is what I'm getting at.
|
|||
FourWinds 10943 posts |
Jul 02, 2004, 16:50
|
||
|
>> You ask for evidence - hit the books fella, it's all there. >> I'll scratch the surface for you. Ooh, it's so nice to be patronised. >> these were people who had access to local stone that would have done the job just >> as well but they chose to undertake journeys to aquire 'exotic' axes for some reason. Who said they did? Has anyone found a Neolithic PDA with a travel itinery in it? It is just as likely that exotic axes were given either as dowreys or peace offerings or were taken as trophies after a battle. There's no need to go on a journey just for an axe. Axes would have been traded along with gold, pots, skins etc and so they would have travelled without the need for anyone to go on a long journey. What of the travelling salesman? These certainly existed in the Bronze Age. Did this practice only start in the Bronze Age? I shouldn't think so, it's more likely to have been carried on from earlier times. There are only a handful of axe factories in Ireland so the some sections of the Irish community, who would have traded other goods with mainland GB anyway, would have had to obtain axes from other places (and traded Irish ones as export), especially if they were at war with the tribes between them and the 'local' axe factories. The people might not have 'chosen' to travel to get axes, but may have been forced to do so. Also, why travel to a nearer axe factory across hostile terrain full of wolves, bears and bandits, when you can sail safely to a friendly village further away where you can obtain them? To a people with exceptional sailing skills (probably) the choice is simple.
|
|||
|
FourWinds 10943 posts |
Jul 02, 2004, 16:53
|
||
I quite agree that such thoughts may have had a large degree of influence in selecting the spot for an axe factory. A remote spot is also useful for preserving trade secrets, but this falls apart because most axes seem to have been roughed up at the quarry and finished elsewhere.
|
|||
|
FourWinds 10943 posts |
Jul 02, 2004, 16:59
|
||
|
"The cache of axes at Ferriters Cove, Co Kerry, indicates that complex ideas surrounding the use of axes may have pre-dated the formal beginning of the Neolithic". The cache of axes might also be a cache left by a travelling salesman who knows better than to enter hostile territory with his whole stock. Several Bronze Age hoards have been identified as most likely being this kind of cache. I don't see why the same shouldn't be true for these axes (on limited info about the size of cache etc). Is the point backed up by any facts regarding the location, method of hiding etc? Or is it just stated for us to accept?
|
| Pages: 9 – [ Previous | 1 … 3 4 5 6 7 8 | Next ] | Add a reply to this topic |
|
|
|
| The Modern Antiquarian Forum Index | |
- ©2013ce Head Heritage Ltd. Contact us Top of page